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Sole Welting - Page 89

post #1321 of 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
We are going a little far afield, but to provide more perspective, both the average and median household income for a household of four in the USA is about $58K, and in this country, credit card debt is rampant.  Even $300 is an unconscionable expenditure on shoes, for most Americans.  

And consumer habits are not, and cannot, be, what they were even three decades ago.  My father had "portable" radio that weighed a ton, from the late 60s, and we used that thing in our house daily until the mid 80's, at which time it finally gave up its ghost.  My computer is um, 3 years old?  And it is way past its due date.  It grinds to a halt when I try to run some more memory intensive programs.  I suspect that my cellphone (4G, apparently top of the line everything) will have to be replaced in a couple of year's time if I want to be able to do anything other than make calls on it.  

This consumer attitude extends well beyond technology, though
technology leads the dance, in many ways.  And in fact, if we went back to the mythical days when people buy only "the best they can afford", and only infrequently, our economy would very likely grind to a halt.  Not to mention that there are not enough Enzo Bonafe's, Vass, or even Meermin, shoes, to shod even 1% of the US population (3.5MM is a lot of pairs of shoes).   Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Back on subject, let's just agree that even amongst men concerned with "style", that there are myriad factors that go into a purchasing decision, and that both bespoke and RTW have their place.  If your critical concern is workmanship, you know exactly what you want, and money is not a factor, a bespoke maker like@DWFII
 might be for you.  However, there are advantages that RTW makers have, that bespoke also cannot compete with.  Designers and stylists do have considerable value.  They also have access to materials that a bespoke maker does not (I've run into this problem with bespoke makers - try sourcing a good grey, distressed, leather, from an American tannery), and may have treatments that require considerable investment in R&D, including many pairs of discarded samples and failed experiments.  I think that DW can understand that "value" does not boil down to just materials and craftsmanship, though those are certainly very important.  
Would the economy grind to a halt? If people bought fewer things but better things for the same total dollar amount, we'd have more high-skilled, high-paying jobs, hopefully with greater satisfaction. Quality over quantity. The economy would look more like Germany's, which wouldn't be all bad.

And it would be great if technology would lead the way in this. I mean, if all those techies in my town and the several south of us could be convinced to spend money on handwelted shoes to go with their high end hoodies, we'd have the beginnings of a revival. Taylor Stitch has done some work in this area. But I bet theres lots of untapped opportunities here.
post #1322 of 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isbister View Post

That seems a quite bold assumption. From what I have heard, in America it is hard enough finding someone to do a simple re-heel repair, let alone restitch a new welt, but perhaps I'm mistaken.

Why do you say that? "What I've heard" is what undermines 90% of what you've said here. It's hearsay. Speculation. And just plain wrong --like the Blake-Rapid business. On the other hand, maybe you just weren't listening when someone...maybe someone who incidentally shares my POV--like James Ducker, for instance...told you different.

Ask Nick V. (he's online right now) how hard it is to replace welt on a HW shoe. He's not awfully fond of me and takes issue with a lot of my views, so I have no idea what he'll say. But I've been in and worked in a number of shoe repair shops in my time and never was it a problem.
post #1323 of 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Why do you say that? "What I've heard" is what undermines 90% of what you've said here. It's hearsay. Speculation. And just plain wrong --like the Blake-Rapid business. On the other hand, maybe you just weren't listening when someone...maybe someone who incidentally shares my POV--like James Ducker, for instance...told you different.

Ask Nick V. (he's online right now) how hard it is to replace welt on a HW shoe. He's not awfully fond of me and takes issue with a lot of my views, so I have no idea what he'll say. But I've been in and worked in a number of shoe repair shops in my time and never was it a problem.

So let me get this right - any town in America, I can march up to the counter with my broken hand-welted shoes and they will sort them out for me? Yes or no, simple question. I wasn't saying the repair itself is difficult, just querying how easy it is to find someone to do it outside of New York - since you were making a big deal of this precise issue a few posts ago.

post #1324 of 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isbister View Post
 

So let me get this right - any town in America, I can march up to the counter with my broken hand-welted shoes and they will sort them out for me? Yes or no, simple question. I wasn't saying the repair itself is difficult, just querying how easy it is to find someone to do it outside of New York - since you were making a big deal of this precise issue a few posts ago.

 

 

 

Yes.

 

For resoles/heels, fixing hand-welted shoes is exactly the same as fixing goodyear welted shoes...

 

As far as re-welting goes, not everyone is capable regardless of the construction...

post #1325 of 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelastquestion View Post

Ignoring the pointless baiting in the rest of your post, that's a single example of slipped gemming. I have seen photos of a handful of others, and encountered slipped gemming once. It is not a big problem for Goodyear-welted shoes, and can be fixed by a recrafting on the original last. You say this is a disadvantage, but it's not like rewelting a handwelted shoe is any easier. There are very few places around the world I would trust with a handwelted shoe.

 



Indeed. We have also seen at least one photo of a failed hand welt. Hardly representative of a massive problem with hand welted shoes at large. Nick has commented in the past on the frequency of gemming failure in GYW shoes - which is to say, very infrequent, and fixable when it does occur. And unlike some who shriek from the fringe - he is actually in the business of repairing such shoes on a rather large scale. I'll take his observations as being a good deal more meaningful.

On the local repair point - there is a small handful of local repair shops that even remotely understand that there even IS a difference between GYW and hand welted construcition, and maybe - MAYBE - one that I would trust with the job if I asbolutely had to. When my hand-welted shoes need resoling they are almost certainly going back to the manufacturer for the job.
post #1326 of 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post
 

 

The OEM for Kent Wang/DC Lewis and many other OEMs can make shoes for less than $350 SRP, as long as you are willing to sacrifice for either quality of material used or your own margin.

post #1327 of 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by emptym View Post
Would the economy grind to a halt? If people bought fewer things but better things for the same total dollar amount, we'd have more high-skilled, high-paying jobs, hopefully with greater satisfaction. Quality over quantity. The economy would look more like Germany's, which wouldn't be all bad.

And it would be great if technology would lead the way in this. I mean, if all those techies in my town and the several south of us could be convinced to spend money on handwelted shoes to go with their high end hoodies, we'd have the beginnings of a revival. Taylor Stitch has done some work in this area. But I bet theres lots of untapped opportunities here.

It depends on turnover.  If the flow of money through the economy is not steady, we could all be fucked.  I suppose that the system could reach a new steady-state after a while, but there would be a cost to any sudden perturbation.  fwiw, Visvim footwear is purportedly handwelted - at least according to the founder of the company.  I suppose that's one way of justifying $1K+ mocassins.  On the other hand, the sneakers are goodyear welted...

post #1328 of 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isbister View Post

So let me get this right - any town in America, I can march up to the counter with my broken hand-welted shoes and they will sort them out for me? Yes or no, simple question. I wasn't saying the repair itself is difficult, just querying how easy it is to find someone to do it outside of New York - since you were making a big deal of this precise issue a few posts ago.

I don't answer questions that have no perfect answer with "yes or no." You may do it, if you want and you may demand it...but I'm not a fool.

I've done repair in cities that you may not ever have heard about--Billings, Montana. Eugene, Oregon. Bend, Oregon, Redmond, Oregon. And, almost too tiny to call a town much less a city--Harrisburg, Oregon. It was never an issue.

And BTW, it was during these years that I saw many, many, many (did I say many?) instances of failed gemming--among people who used their shoes in circumstances and environments other than air conditioned offices. None of whom...FWIW...had any idea that the gemming had failed--except that the shoes didn't fit well anymore, were walking over, beginning to come apart or were leaking. I am ashamed to admit that I tried to fix these shoes (I wasn't yet a shoe or bootmaker) and as the blog that MoneyWellSpent offered, suggests, in most cases even though I got the shoes back together I knew it wasn't optimal. Without the original last, a GY shoe with more than incidental gemming failure cannot be repair correctly short of recrafting.

Never, never did any of us have such difficulties or problems with HW shoes. We actually looked forward to repairing them.

I am long past the days when I did repair (I might do 1 pair a year) yet within the time period since I have been on SF I was asked to repair (how likely is that?) and subsequently took photographs of, these (different shoes) along with the one previously posted. Three pair brought to someone who doesn't officially do repair anymore. What are the odds?




--
Edited by DWFII - 8/6/14 at 11:11am
post #1329 of 1792

This thread is pretty cool, but tempers are gettinga little frayed.  Let's dial back the tone a bit, okay?  We can have differences in opinion without getting into fights.  If anyone feels like someone else is just an incorrigible idiot, please put them on ignore.  Unfortunately for all of you, you cannot ignore me, and have the listen to every single word that I have to say, to paraphrase The Wedding Singer.

post #1330 of 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

It depends on turnover.  If the flow of money through the economy is not steady, we could all fucked.  I suppose that the system could reach a new steady-state after a while, but there would be a cost to any sudden perturbation.  fwiw, Visvim footwear is purportedly handwelted - at least according to the founder of the company.  I suppose that's one way of justifying $1K+ mocassins.  On the other hand, the sneakers are goodyear welted...
Sounds good. It's already a SF standard to justify a few GY shoes over several glued ones.

Let's say we also bring into the discussion the environmental costs to our high quantity, low quality habits of consumption. If only we had a climatologist to weigh in on this...

I would like a pair of old school (like 1920's old) sneakers with handwelting.
post #1331 of 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post
 

It depends on turnover.  If the flow of money through the economy is not steady, we could all be fucked.  I suppose that the system could reach a new steady-state after a while, but there would be a cost to any sudden perturbation.  fwiw, Visvim footwear is purportedly handwelted - at least according to the founder of the company.  I suppose that's one way of justifying $1K+ mocassins.  On the other hand, the sneakers are goodyear welted...

 

FYI the velocity of money remains very low and has not recover to anywhere close to pre-lehman levels.  Yet we are still okay.

 

Deflation is bad for the economy is a myth propagated by one school of thought thats aligned not with reality but political motivations.

 

Lets all get side tracked from the discussion.

post #1332 of 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by emptym View Post


Let's say we also bring into the discussion the environmental costs to our high quantity, low quality habits of consumption. If only we had a climatologist to weigh in on this...

Oh boy...

lurker[1].gif

Are you deliberately trying to "wind me up?"crackup[1].gif

Seriously, no worries--I'll bring the whisky.
post #1333 of 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


I don't answer questions that have no perfect answer with "yes or no." You may do it, if you want and you may demand it...but I'm not a fool.

I've done repair in cities that you may not ever have heard about--Billings, Montana. Eugene, Oregon. Bend, Oregon, Redmond, Oregon. And, almost too tiny to call a town much less a city--Harrisburg, Oregon. It was never an issue.

And BTW, that's where I saw many, many, many (did I say many?) instances of failed gemming--among people who used their shoes in circumstances and environments other than air conditioned offices.None of whom...FWIW...had any idea that the gemming had failed--except that the shoes didn't fit well, anymore, were walking over, beginning to come apart or were leaking. I am ashamed to admit that I tried to fix these shoes (I wasn't yet a shoe or bootmaker) and as the blog that MoneyWellSpent offered, suggests, in most cases even though I got the shoes back together I knew it wasn't optimal. Without the original last, a GY shoe with more than incidental gemming failure cannot be repair correctly short of recrafting.

Never, never did any of us have such difficulties or problems with HW shoes. We actually t looked forward to repairing them.

OK thanks that's a help - Montana, Oregon and NY, at least, are covered. Even for gemming failures too.

 

Slight tangent, but Edward Green have a very interesting archive which details every single repair that is returned to them - there is a dossier on every single pair of shoes. Sending shoes to Northants from Texas must be expensive, but I doubt whether any of the Northampton firms are making a penny of profit on the repairs they make, which in some cases are probably fundamentally uneconomic propositions - chewed by dog, run over by lawnmower/fire truck etc etc, but the owners are attached to their shoes and in some cases it seems there is some sentimental value for them. The point is, they investigate what has happened, photograph everything and do what they can. Even living in Northampton I don't always send my shoes back to the factories for repair, but when I do, they come back better than new.

post #1334 of 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post
 

 

FYI the velocity of money remains very low and has not recover to anywhere close to pre-lehman levels.  Yet we are still okay.

 

Deflation is bad for the economy is a myth propagated by one school of thought thats aligned not with reality but political motivations.

 

Lets all get side tracked from the discussion.

You've been here long enough to know that this is the rule, rather than the exception.  If it gets sidetracked enough, I'll just branch off the thread.

post #1335 of 1792
..deleted. I give up.

 

 

Anyway, I know enough members read this thread who don't contribute, so who's going to help me find a pair of blake rapid wide fit round toe brogues.

 

Come on, they must exist, I have scoured the internet - believe me - and I am appealing for assistance. They are almost certainly out there! 

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