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Sole Welting - Page 88

post #1306 of 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Handmadeshoes View Post

I should have listened to my first gut

Maybe you should have, esp. since you are not willing to address the issues.

And if you love this the Trade (not the industry--you're correct I don't give a damn about the industry) then you''d lament, as I do, the passing--the loss--of the knowledge; and the dumbing down of the skills; and the dissing of the Traditions and the Traditional way of doing things. You'd lament the mis-perceptions...intentionally fostered...of what shoes can and should be.

You love your world...but from my perspective it is mightily constrained and crabbed--it's not all there is and never was. But if people in "the industry" have their way, it's all that will be.

--
Edited by DWFII - 8/6/14 at 10:41am
post #1307 of 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


See...I didn't say someone in this thread was saying that (although many are buying into it). You didn't read, you skimmed. words have meanings...there is a difference.

Bottom line is that you don't know what you're talking about. I seldom do this, and I don't like doing it, but you force the issue. Go to the Edward Green site. Enter. Read.

Then look at the links to the posts MoneyWellSpent posted earlier in this thread.

And wasn't it you that said that GY was better than HW? i know that Isbister said that as well. What does that mean if not GYwelted shoes are the finest anywhere?

You give the lie to your own words and any claim of credibility or authenticity.

 

Yes, I said that. It's better in the sense that GY is mature technology that, objectively, works, for one thing. I'm not necessarily saying a well-sewn hand-welted shoe is technically inferior, but because it is necessarily more time-consuming to make shoes that way, it is economically inferior - it can only be a more expensive product, either that or the craftsman will have to work for free.

 

Hand-welted shoes can only ever be for the few, that is their place. It is ridiculous to pretend otherwise, and rather snobbish to disparage the alternatives that exist.

 

I believe that 'gemming' has been made up into a big bogeyman-issue. GY shoes are simply not falling apart in the way that they perhaps should if it were anything other than that - a big red herring.

post #1308 of 1701
shog[1].gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isbister View Post

Yes, I said that. It's better in the sense that GY is mature technology that, objectively, works, for one thing. I'm not necessarily saying a well-sewn hand-welted shoe is technically inferior, but because it is necessarily more time-consuming to make shoes that way, it is economically inferior - it can only be a more expensive product, either that or the craftsman will have to work for free.

How long do you suppose GY welting and glued on canvas gemming has been practiced?

How long do you think shoemakers have been handwelting?

Which is the more mature technology?

Yes, HW is economically inferior...so are bespoke suits, shirts, ties and wrist watches. Is this the "Cheap Clothes That Look OK" forum? Economically superior is just another word for expedient --lowest common denominator.

And, I've said this before...I'm not the one making an issue of this. I'm not the one exaggerating the defects of GY. I have never said that your shoes would turn to mush--that's an exaggeration (even a lie) that originates wholly apart from anything I have said. Similarly with "explode," 'fail immediately" 'hurt your feet" the list is limited only by the the fantasies, and willingness to distort, of people who have nothing else they can say..

I have only always said that there was the possibility of failure--a possibility that is not shared by a properly executed hand sewn welt.

I speak only the objective truth in this regard--a truth none of you wants to acknowledge or address except in the most general terms.

That said, I am an advocate, a proponent, of HW and best practices...and always will be. It is...as everyone here admits, even if only reluctantly, the better technique for achieving objective quality. If asked, prompted, or the opportunity presents itself, I will always draw the comparison.
Quote:
Hand-welted shoes can only ever be for the few, that is their place. It is ridiculous to pretend otherwise, and rather snobbish to disparage the alternatives that exist.

This is the common-man, politically correct whine. "Poor me." Everyone has their priorities. that's fine. If your priorities are "good enough" well, fair enough. But it is ignorant to diss people who's priorities are not yours. By contrast, I don't care about ...nor do I care to comment on...your priorities. I've said that many times and I've practiced it. I comment only on technique and quality...as I see it from the perspective of a long time, working shoemaker.
Quote:
I believe that 'gemming' has been made up into a big bogeyman-issue. GY shoes are simply not falling apart in the way that they perhaps should if it were anything other than that - a big red herring.

Did you look at the links above? Post 1305? You want me to look at (and read) your comments don't you?

Here...you can't miss or overlook this:



Do you even know what you're looking at here?

--
Edited by DWFII - 8/6/14 at 8:41am
post #1309 of 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


How long do you suppose GY welting and gemming has bee practiced?

How long do you think shoemakers have been handwelting?

Which is the more mature technology?
I said GY is mature technology - which it is. The fact that hand welting has been around a lot longer is irrelevant to how GY works.

Quote:
Yes, HW is economically inferior...so are bespoke suits, shirts, toes and wrist watches. Is this the "Cheap Clothes That Look OK" forum? Economically superior is just another word for expedient --lowest common denominator.
You can't seem to avoid disparaging everything else, can you. It doesn't make for good advocacy of your point of view. (And if only good GY shoes really were cheap...)
Quote:
And, I've said this before...I'm not the one making an issue of this. I'm not the one exaggerating the defects of GY. I have never said that your shoes would turn to mush--that's an exaggeration (even a lie) that originates wholly apart from anything I have said. Similarly with "explode," 'fail immediately" 'hurt your feet" the list is limited only by the willingness to distort by people who have nothing else they can say..
Yet there is always the implication that something is seriously amiss with GY - there has to be, to support your thesis that HW best.

Quote:
Here you can't miss or overlook this:



Do you even know what you're looking at here?
To be honest, it looks like a loose thread. Accepting what the caption says, woohoo the gemming has slipped. Has the shoe come apart though? The uppers are still stitched to the welt, the welt still stitched to the sole - so in all probability, no. The gemming is important when the shoe is being constructed, but after that the integrity of the shoe depends more on the junction between upper and sole via the welt.
 
post #1310 of 1701
Just to provide a bit of perspective, SkoAB sells hand-welted Enzo Bonafé shoes starting at around $600. Meermin's Linea Maestro line is hand-welted and sells for even less. Hand-welted Vass shoes can be had for around $800 at full retail price and can be bought on sale from Epaulet or NMWA for around $600. The whole "HW shoes are only for the few" argument doesn't really hold water anymore, if it ever did at one point in time.
Edited by diadem - 8/6/14 at 9:25am
post #1311 of 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by diadem View Post

Just to provide a bit of perspective, SkoAB sells hand-welted Enzo Bonafé shoes starting at around $600. Meermin's Linea Maestro line is hand-welted and sells for even less. Hand-welted Vass shoes can had for under $800 at full retail price and can be bought on sale from ePaulet or NMWA for around $600. The whole "HW shoes are only for the few" argument doesn't really hold water anymore.

 

Those prices are a lot lower than I would have expected - frankly I no longer keep tabs on shoe prices as at my age I already have more than enough pairs to see me out, but if I am ever in Budapest, who knows? The only hand welted pair I have, a pair of riding boots, cost me £350 in 1999 - they are probably 3x that much now.

 

However, price aside, HW shoes can still only ever be for the few, as there would never be the supply to replace the 100s of thousands of GY shoes being turned out by Church's et al every year. Not unless Vass and the others can open a workshop in every town, which would be a nice idea but I can't see it happening any time soon.

post #1312 of 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelastquestion View Post

Ignoring the pointless baiting in the rest of your post, that's a single example of slipped gemming. I have seen photos of a handful of others, and encountered slipped gemming once. It is not a big problem for Goodyear-welted shoes, and can be fixed by a recrafting on the original last. You say this is a disadvantage, but it's not like rewelting a handwelted shoe is any easier. There are very few places around the world I would trust with a handwelted shoe.

Wrong again. In the first place if the welt fails or is broken on a hand welted shoe ...even for a considerable distance it can be replaced in many a shoe repair shop with little or no problem. The holes in the insole are there...no need to try and guess where the holdfast is. The welt will go back in exactly where it was when the shoe was new. that's the brilliance of the HW shoe...the shoemaker doesn't have to see or deal with the abuse the customer inflicts on his shoes--it is purposely designed to be repairable from virtually anywhere in the world not just Northants.

As the link MWS provided illustrates, if the gemming has failed in more than just a small section, it must go back to the factory to be done correctly (without any measure of guessing) it must be recrafted.

The rest is priorities and what you want to do...depending, of course, on what you know about the mechanics and materials of shoemaking. Which begs the q2uestion....
post #1313 of 1701
Works for me. I rather like the notion of buying HW shoes at the same price or less than what others pay for GY shoes...And I also rather like the prospect of being a member of "the few" biggrin.gif.

For the record, I own my fair share of GY shoes (a couple AE's, a pair of AS Exclusives, and an incoming pair of Carminas from a GMTO through Steve at Gentlemen's Footwear) and don't regret any of my purchases, so I'm only half-kidding with my statement above.
post #1314 of 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isbister View Post

I said GY is mature technology - which it is. The fact that hand welting has been around a lot longer is irrelevant to how GY works.

Making particle board armoires is a mature technology too. Would you prefer that over solid mahogany? Or even veneered plywood?
Quote:
You can't seem to avoid disparaging everything else, can you. It doesn't make for good advocacy of your point of view. (And if only good GY shoes really were cheap...)

Hey! If the shoe fits wear it. that's your defensiveness talking. I am not so blind that I cannot...or will not...see the difference. Maybe it's part of being a craftsman... of actually knowing what it takes to get from A to B. Of actually having done the work and earned the right to comment upon it.

And again, there is no significant difference between the bottoming techniques used in the $200.00 GY welted shoe and the bottoming techniques used in the $1500.00 GY welted shoe. The machines are the same, the gemming the same, the stitch the same, and in many cases the materials the same.
Quote:
Yet there is always the implication that something is seriously amiss with GY - there has to be, to support your thesis that HW best.

Wrong. ..there is no implication, only the objective facts. HW is superior in objective quality to GY. Period. By every logical, valid comparison.
Quote:
To be honest, it looks like a loose thread. Accepting what the caption says, woohoo the gemming has slipped. Has the shoe come apart though? The uppers are still stitched to the welt, the welt still stitched to the sole - so in all probability, no. The gemming is important when the shoe is being constructed, but after that the integrity of the shoe depends more on the junction between upper and sole via the welt.

You're just equivocating and making excuses. It makes a difference to the consumer who doesn't really appreciate being forced to send the shoe to England for recrafting. It makes a difference because it affects fit. It makes a difference because the shoe will tend to distort and walk over. it makes a difference because it's not what the customer paid for. It makes a difference because dirt and lint and so forth can get into the space between the insole and further weaken the gemming. And the cork can and will break up and start to come out.

And again, if the outsole is what's holding the shoe together...why not just eliminate all the bullshit and go straight to cement sole construction. The outsole (and the cement..such as it is) is all that's holding the shoe together, in that instance as well.

--
Edited by DWFII - 8/6/14 at 10:47am
post #1315 of 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by diadem View Post

Just to provide a bit of perspective, SkoAB sells hand-welted Enzo Bonafé shoes starting at around $600. Meermin's Linea Maestro line is hand-welted and sells for even less. Hand-welted Vass shoes can had for around $800 at full retail price and can be bought on sale from ePaulet or NMWA for around $600. The whole "HW shoes are only for the few" argument doesn't really hold water anymore, if it ever did at one point in time.

We are going a little far afield, but to provide more perspective, both the average and median household income for a household of four in the USA is about $58K, and in this country, credit card debt is rampant.  Even $300 is an unconscionable expenditure on shoes, for most Americans.  

 

And consumer habits are not, and cannot, be, what they were even three decades ago.  My father had "portable" radio that weighed a ton, from the late 60s, and we used that thing in our house daily until the mid 80's, at which time it finally gave up its ghost.  My computer is um, 3 years old?  And it is way past its due date.  It grinds to a halt when I try to run some more memory intensive programs.  I suspect that my cellphone (4G, apparently top of the line everything) will have to be replaced in a couple of year's time if I want to be able to do anything other than make calls on it.  

 

This consumer attitude extends well beyond technology, though technology leads the dance, in many ways.  And in fact, if we went back to the mythical days when people buy only "the best they can afford", and only infrequently, our economy would very likely grind to a halt.  Not to mention that there are not enough Enzo Bonafe's, Vass, or even Meermin, shoes, to shod even 1% of the US population (3.5MM is a lot of pairs of shoes).  

 

Back on subject, let's just agree that even amongst men concerned with "style", that there are myriad factors that go into a purchasing decision, and that both bespoke and RTW have their place.  If your critical concern is workmanship, you know exactly what you want, and money is not a factor, a bespoke maker like@DWFII might be for you.  However, there are advantages that RTW makers have, that bespoke also cannot compete with.  Designers and stylists do have considerable value.  They also have access to materials that a bespoke maker does not (I've run into this problem with bespoke makers - try sourcing a good grey, distressed, leather, from an American tannery), and may have treatments that require considerable investment in R&D, including many pairs of discarded samples and failed experiments.  I think that DW can understand that "value" does not boil down to just materials and craftsmanship, though those are certainly very important.  

post #1316 of 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Wrong again. In the first place if the welt fails or is broken on a hand welted shoe ...even for a considerable distance it can be replaced in many a shoe repair shop with little or no problem. The holes in the insole are there...no need to try and guess where the holdfast is. The welt will go back in exactly where it was when the shoe was new. that's the brilliance of the HW shoe...the shoemaker doesn't have to see or deal with the abuse the customer inflicts on his shoes--it is purposely designed to be repairable from virtually anywhere in the world not just Northants.
...
 
That seems a quite bold assumption. From what I have heard, in America it is hard enough finding someone to do a simple re-heel repair, let alone restitch a new welt, but perhaps I'm mistaken.
post #1317 of 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by diadem View Post

Just to provide a bit of perspective, SkoAB sells hand-welted Enzo Bonafé shoes starting at around $600. Meermin's Linea Maestro line is hand-welted and sells for even less. Hand-welted Vass shoes can be had for around $800 at full retail price and can be bought on sale from Epaulet or NMWA for around $600. The whole "HW shoes are only for the few" argument doesn't really hold water anymore, if it ever did at one point in time.

 



You're not likely to find a bigger Vass and Bonafe fan on the forums than me. And I agree that they offer high quality and exceptional value. But if you look at the combined total annual output of Vass and Bonafe - (let's leave Meermin aside for the moment as I don't think their overall quality is at all close to the foregoing makers) as compared with, say, EG and Lobb - HW shoes are still only available to a comparative few even among higher end RTW buyers. Not to mention that not all makers have equal presence in all global markets.

I also have a good number of both GYW and hand welted shoes in my rotation - and I appreiciate and enjoy them all. They have all served me well and I fully expect that they will continue to do so over a great many years to come.

Choice is good. Personally, I am delighted that as a shoe aficionado, I have the likes of Vass, EG, Carmina, AE, Bonafe, G&G, JF and others available to me to satisfy my purchase needs or my purchase whims. Indeed, the number of quality and aestheticaly appealing choices vastly exceeds my personal purchasing power. As a buyer, being spoiled for choice is a very good thing.

I think you may agree that endlessly - and falsely - denegrating the different choices that others have made as a means of validating one's own choices is juvenile and serves no purpose beyond self-promotion and ego-stroking.
post #1318 of 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

We are going a little far afield, but to provide more perspective, both the average and median household income for a household of four in the USA is about $58K, and in this country, credit card debt is rampant.  Even $300 is an unconscionable expenditure on shoes, for most Americans.  

 

And consumer habits are not, and cannot, be, what they were even three decades ago.  My father had "portable" radio that weighed a ton, from the late 60s, and we used that thing in our house daily until the mid 80's, at which time it finally gave up its ghost.  My computer is um, 3 years old?  And it is way past its due date.  It grinds to a halt when I try to run some more memory intensive programs.  I suspect that my cellphone (4G, apparently top of the line everything) will have to be replaced in a couple of year's time if I want to be able to do anything other than make calls on it.  

 

This consumer attitude extends well beyond technology, though technology leads the dance, in many ways.  And in fact, if we went back to the mythical days when people buy only "the best they can afford", and only infrequently, our economy would very likely grind to a halt.  Not to mention that there are not enough Enzo Bonafe's, Vass, or even Meermin, shoes, to shod even 1% of the US population (3.5MM is a lot of pairs of shoes).  

 

Back on subject, let's just agree that even amongst men concerned with "style", that there are myriad factors that go into a purchasing decision, and that both bespoke and RTW have their place.  If your critical concern is workmanship, you know exactly what you want, and money is not a factor, a bespoke maker like@DWFII might be for you.  However, there are advantages that RTW makers have, that bespoke also cannot compete with.  Designers and stylists do have considerable value.  They also have access to materials that a bespoke maker does not (I've run into this problem with bespoke makers - try sourcing a good grey, distressed, leather, from an American tannery), and may have treatments that require considerable investment in R&D, including many pairs of discarded samples and failed experiments.  I think that DW can understand that "value" does not boil down to just materials and craftsmanship, though those are certainly very important.  


Uh, you just took this discussion in a direction I had absolutely no intention of leading it in. All I was trying to say was that HW shoes are not priced above GY shoes anymore, which was the implication at least one person was making in the thread a couple posts back. There are many places where you can buy HW shoes at the same price as, or in some instances at a much lower price than, GY shoes. The opposite is also true (St. Crispins is a good example), but it's not so black and white anymore.

Obviously, the demographic of SF, especially the CM guys, spends on average more than the median American household does on clothing and footwear.
post #1319 of 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by diadem View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post
 

We are going a little far afield, but to provide more perspective, both the average and median household income for a household of four in the USA is about $58K, and in this country, credit card debt is rampant.  Even $300 is an unconscionable expenditure on shoes, for most Americans.  

 

And consumer habits are not, and cannot, be, what they were even three decades ago.  My father had "portable" radio that weighed a ton, from the late 60s, and we used that thing in our house daily until the mid 80's, at which time it finally gave up its ghost.  My computer is um, 3 years old?  And it is way past its due date.  It grinds to a halt when I try to run some more memory intensive programs.  I suspect that my cellphone (4G, apparently top of the line everything) will have to be replaced in a couple of year's time if I want to be able to do anything other than make calls on it.  

 

This consumer attitude extends well beyond technology, though technology leads the dance, in many ways.  And in fact, if we went back to the mythical days when people buy only "the best they can afford", and only infrequently, our economy would very likely grind to a halt.  Not to mention that there are not enough Enzo Bonafe's, Vass, or even Meermin, shoes, to shod even 1% of the US population (3.5MM is a lot of pairs of shoes).  

 

Back on subject, let's just agree that even amongst men concerned with "style", that there are myriad factors that go into a purchasing decision, and that both bespoke and RTW have their place.  If your critical concern is workmanship, you know exactly what you want, and money is not a factor, a bespoke maker like@DWFII might be for you.  However, there are advantages that RTW makers have, that bespoke also cannot compete with.  Designers and stylists do have considerable value.  They also have access to materials that a bespoke maker does not (I've run into this problem with bespoke makers - try sourcing a good grey, distressed, leather, from an American tannery), and may have treatments that require considerable investment in R&D, including many pairs of discarded samples and failed experiments.  I think that DW can understand that "value" does not boil down to just materials and craftsmanship, though those are certainly very important.  


Uh, you just took this discussion in a direction I had absolutely no intention of leading it in. All I was trying to say was that HW shoes are not priced above GY shoes anymore, which was the implication at least one person was making in the thread a couple posts back. There are many places where you can buy HW shoes at the same price as, or in some instances at a much lower price than, GY shoes. The opposite is also true (St. Crispins is a good example), but it's not so black and white anymore.

Obviously, the demographic of SF, especially the CM guys, spends on average more than the average American household does on clothing and footwear.

 

Yeah, I understood.  I just took your post as a jumping off point.  I tend to do that :satisfied:  But, to your point - there are goodyear welted shoes out there to be had for $350 (retail).  Kent Wang does some of those.  There are some companies that claim to be able to do it for as little as $250, though I can't recall who, off the top of my head.  Yes, you are right that there are handwelted shoes to be had (and I think that you have to compare things at retail) in the $600 category, but that is the very lowest tier of handwelted shoes, AFAIK, and at those pricepoints, there is a lot more choice in Goodyear welted shoes.  

 

If hand welted craftsmanship is your number one criteria, it can be done, but there may be a tradeoff, even at the same price.  Meermin shoes are nice, for what they are, but Carminas (GY welted) are considerably nicer looking, construction arguments put aside.  I can't comment on Enzo Bonafe.

post #1320 of 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerP View Post

...serves no purpose beyond self-promotion and ego-stroking

QFI

There's no greater egotism than to pontificate about subjects you know nothing about.

You are the biggest poser and purveyor of false information on this or any other forum I've ever been on. And no wonder, you opine and stick your nose into subjects that you know nothing about and really don't want to know anything about. Your opinion...your posts...are all smoke and mirrors and/or sucking up.

Someone once said that lies get a free pass but the truth has to earn its way.

You haven't earned the right to reference me or my remarks in any way.
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