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Sole Welting - Page 87

post #1291 of 1707

One specific example I read about just this week is Patagonia's wetsuits.  They partnered with a company called Yulex to develop a plant-based "neoprene".  Instead of asking for an exclusive in return, they're encouraging their competitors to adopt the product, too.  They lose their competitive edge, but with the extra volume they hope to get the price down to a level that will allow them use the material for their entire line of wetsuits instead of just the most expensive model.

post #1292 of 1707
No, I admire all that...what I'm saying is that diversification is essentially a scattering of attention. It's the "Jack of all Trades, Master of none" syndrome. The point is that the dictum "you can't do both" doesn't apply...cannot apply. There is no either/or. And because of that, the only Job that can exist or be implemented is to make money.

Beyond that, it's a new (or very old) and different paradigm/business model than in the Shoe Trade.

Having said all that...again, I'm not qualified to do more than offer a casual perspective.
post #1293 of 1707
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isbister View Post
 

 

No, it's Blake Rapid - I have a pair from them in fact and the stitching is quite unmissable.

 

There was a little blog on the place a few years back, some nice photos in it:

 

http://loomstate.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/william-lennon-factory-stoney-middleton.html

 

You might be wrong, but that's a fascinating article and a nice blog which I've added to my list of favourites, thanks!

post #1294 of 1707
Quote:
Originally Posted by emptym View Post

QFI

"Queen Forfeits Immediately?"
post #1295 of 1707
Well I'm happy to see that things got sorted out regarding recent posts in this thread.
When it comes down to "making money" as the objective....
As a small player, I subscribe to a very simple theory...Take care of the customer, the rest will take care of itself. However, I do know of companies that actually invest in schools and pay the freight training apprentices in order to turn out a consistent high-grade product. They even pay for lunches for their students. That's an admirable commitment. Nothing gets released until there Masters approve of the details. Thats at a cost. It's of logic built into the retail price. But, they know what they want in terms of consistency of they're high-grade product. So, to say everything is equal in terms of products, materials, time and, cost is unfair in these cases,

DW....You mention that you currently have a student. Regardless of your arigment with him/her. Can they use your're name? Do they just go off on they're own? Do you pay some expenses? What's in it for them?

Nick V.
www.bnelsonshoes.com
post #1296 of 1707

That's a pretty radical concept, Nick.  Hard to imagine a manufacturer wanting to produce a high quality product, but also wanting to produce a profit such that they can stay in business and continue to produce a high quality product.  Okay, not so hard to imagine after all.

post #1297 of 1707
Quote:
Originally Posted by emptym View Post

Glaser Designs has repeatedly been approached by very well-known and well-regarded retailers. The retailers are told that if they are to carry Glaser's bags, they'd have to sell them for the same price Glaser sells them. They could not mark them up. The Glasers and DW share much in common. I think they're both world-renowned--probably not by many, but they're might be happy to be known by those who know them.

this is a nice story and I am all for quality and integrity but this idea will forever keep that company quite small. And I am sure that many of those retailers have since rejected that notion of same price or no deal.

We all have different ideas of how we project ourselves/our products/our vision. Some of us want to make the best thing in the world, period, full stop etc. I image that DW has this view. It's a noble one for sure. Some of us want to make the best value for money while making our product accessible to at least 10-20% of the world (this is more my goal). I love high quality products. I have bespoke suits and if money were no issue then I would only get them and not RTW. But the key phrase is "if money were not an issue." So, we can go on and on about $1200 Glaser bags, $1500 Handwelted shoes, $5000 bespoke suits made entirely by hand and how they are the end all be all (which they are), but that does not mean the other stuff is unnecessary or inferior per se (quality yes, but not in practicality).

That being it is necessary for the cheaper stuff (i.e. goodyear welted in this case) to exist. And no the cheaper stuff is not as good as the higher quality handmade stuff. Only stupid companies who would sell their souls to make a buck try to lie and say that it is. But you don't see the words Handmade or Handwelted or any of that on my shoes do you and i am not the only one (and FYI, my shoes are actually semi-handlasted, pulled in at the waist by hand, but I don't even list that on my site).

This of course this mini rant is not directed at you Mark, but rather this whole thread and everybody involved. It has truly gone past the point of sanity where we are simply arguing to just argue. Everything in this world is necessary. If there were no machine made shoes, we would not appreciate handmade shoes. If there was only good quality, would it still be good quality? No, it would be normal.

@DWFII Look, I think handmade/handwelted shoes are superior (in most cases) but be sensible for 1 second and admit that it would not be practical if that was the only option available. Less than 0.1% of the world population could afford them. Should we all resort to cement or blake just because Goodyear is a so called rip off of handwelted? That's ridiculous.... Goodyear welted manufacturers don't try and pretend to be handwelted shoes, or do they say that they are the best in the world. And if they do, I am sure that they are saying that in comparison to the OTHER GOODYEAR makers, not bespoke makers like yourself.

The bottom line is if people are happy with what they are buying then that it is all that matters, And if they can afford to do better and we can educate them on why it is good to take the bump up, then great. But that does not mean that the entry level is thus not necessary. No one goes from Steve Madden to Saint Crispins. Certainly they stop at AE, C&J, G&G and the like before..... But going around telling normal people with normal wages that their goodyear welted shoes aren't worth the price they paid because it is just a crappy glued shoe that is bound to fall apart is just unfair in reality.

At the end of the day, why can't we all just agree to disagree? Because in reality we are all just wasting time, including myself who should already prepped my blog post for the day and am now far behind!! (but I know that this is my own fault!)

(@RogerP guess I just couldn't help myself chiming in one last time....)
post #1298 of 1707
^^^ Don't apologize Justin, such rational contributions are most valuable.
post #1299 of 1707
Quote:
Originally Posted by Handmadeshoes View Post

@DWFII Look, I think handmade/handwelted shoes are superior (in most cases) but be sensible for 1 second and admit that it would not be practical if that was the only option available. Less than 0.1% of the world population could afford them. Should we all resort to cement or blake just because Goodyear is a so called rip off of handwelted? That's ridiculous.... Goodyear welted manufacturers don't try and pretend to be handwelted shoes, or do they say that they are the best in the world. And if they do, I am sure that they are saying that in comparison to the OTHER GOODYEAR makers, not bespoke makers like yourself.

At the end of the day, why can't we all just agree to disagree? Because in reality we are all just wasting time, including myself who should already prepped my blog post for the day and am now far behind!! (but I know that this is my own fault!)

(@RogerP guess I just couldn't help myself chiming in one last time....)

First, I have, since I came onto StyleForum acknowledged that there is a place for GY welted shoes. Just as there is a place for Jos. A. Banks suits...which are roughly comparable. Is it StyleForum? Maybe...if you want it to be. There's an expanded version of that point in the last several pages if you'd actually be interested in another point of view.

It seems to me that everyone wants to get their two cents in, but nobody wants to actually be involved in a discussion that requires them to listen, read for understanding, and/or think.No one wants the commitment...of time, if nothing else. An actual conversation...two sided...as opposed to a soliloquy...that respects the other person's point of view enough to read their words in entirety and not distort or, sometimes deliberately, misrepresent what they have said or their position.

We had the discussion in this thread about deceptive claims and advertising once before. MoneyWellSpent researched the subject thoroughly and found that it was common practice among the high end makers to claim that GY was "the best" or that their shoes were "the finest made shoes in Elbonia (sic)", etc.. He listed all the companies that made such bogus claims.

Of course, you weren't following the thread then and you don't want to deal with it now. Too much work, too much thinking... if your current remarks are any indication.

I haven't made any of the claims that you attribute to me...so it's water off a duck's back. But it's just as deceptive and bogus to make those claims about what I have said or not said...esp. without substantiation...as the claims the PR firms make. The same challenge I have made to the usual suspects over and over again, still stands and remains unfulfilled and ready for you--create a link to any post where I have said what you claim I have said.

Think about it--you could be a hero to...??

If you can...and til now no one else has been able to...at least I'll be able to deal with and answer the fishmongering gossip and outright lies being bandied about.. That's what any sense of justice and fairness is about, isn't it? That you get to confront the accusations and your accusers? Or perhaps you and others don't have a sense of fairness and justice? It doesn't seem to be a valued ethic in this day and age.

Finally...once and for all--there's no forum police (unless there's people lobbying in PM to instigate all these brouhahas). You and everyone who reads these posts can do, buy, and enjoy whatever and however they want. I've said that all along, as well.

Repeat...for the sleepyheads...there is no forum police--I've said that all along.

But I will continue to advocate for quality and advocate for informing oneself (that's another word for learning), for actually seeing what you are looking at, for wondering, and for thinking--thinking independently of the PR hype and the deceptive advertising and, esp. the self-deception.

As far as wasting your time...why do it? If it bothers you,don't do it!. there's no forum police here to make you. Is there? And if you can't help yourself...well self-control is a good thing.

--
Edited by DWFII - 8/6/14 at 5:57am
post #1300 of 1707
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


As far as wasting your time...why do it? If it bothers you,don't do it!. there's no forum police here to make you. Is there?

You are an early riser!

I only say wasting my time as I don't think anyone is convincing anyone here. If I was getting through, then it would not be time wasting. In reality I think that there are 2 teams and each comments simply to the spite the other and no one really listens to anyone on the opposing team.

I am not sure what deceptive claims you read that I was directing at you. I just said to be practical because sometimes your words come across as GY welted shoes should cease to exist because they are fraud, crap, nothing but glue. Maybe you don't realize how you come across? This is not an attack but rather a chance to step outside of yourself and see how you come across to others. If you don't care, so be it.

I am with you when say that prior to my involvement in this thread there was an attack on companies that were claiming to make the best shoes in the world by machine. I don't think like that. Handmade shoes are the best, hands down. We are on the same level on this and I HATE when machine made shoe companies claim to be handmade. It makes my blood boil that such lies can be spread and that foolish people believe them.

My only issue with you DW and this is not personal, but as we ended our last debacle admitting that on a forum that things can be taken out of context, is when you say things like GY shoes are only as good as the glue that holds them. You exaggerate. Plain and simple. Yea sure you can make this claim, but then one can say that handwelted shoes are only as good as the maker welting them. If a maker is not careful he can make the feather/holdfast/wall as we called it in Italian (i.e. the wall that the thread is stitched to - for those that don't understand the terminology) very weak if he does not use his awl right. If he welts dry or too wet or cuts the feather too thin or too shallow etc. There are many cases where the leather that is holding the welt thread, the upper, the lining and insole together can be very weak and in fact break more prematurely then a glued rib, if not done properly. So there are lots of 'if's, and's or but's' in this world and I just don't think that you should continue to go on knocking down something that in fact, you are not apart of. You are a bespoke maker, the creme de la creme. Anyone with common sense knows that true handmade shoes are better than machine ones, but there is no point going around and telling people that the machine ones are just shit or compared to a Jo. S Banks or whatever suit. And you do this whether you realize it or not. And no I am not going to go through the 90 or so pages just to find an exact quote. Who has time for that?

I am not against you DW but I do think that you do take things a bit too far sometimes (not with me, but with others) and that you have a hard time just letting go. I do too, so I speak from experience.

Good day to you.
Edited by Handmadeshoes - 8/6/14 at 9:22am
post #1301 of 1707
post #1302 of 1707
Quote:
Originally Posted by Handmadeshoes View Post



You are an early riser!



I only say wasting my time as I don't think anyone is convincing anyone here. If I was getting through, then it would not be time wasting. In reality I think that there are 2 teams and each comments simply to the spite the other and no one really listens to anyone on the opposing team.



I am not sure what deceptive claims you read that I was directing at you. I just said to be practical because sometimes your words come across as GY welted shoes should cease to exist because they are fraud, crap, nothing but glue. Maybe you don't realize how you come across? This is not an attack but rather a chance to step outside of yourself and see how you come across to others. If you don't care, so be it.



I am with you when say that prior to my involvement in this thread there was an attack on companies that were claiming to make the best shoes in the world by machine. I don't think like that. Handmade shoes are the best, hands down. We are on the same level on this and I HATE when machine made shoe companies claim to be handmade. It makes my blood boil that such lies can be spread and that foolish people believe them.



My only issue with you DW and this is not personal, but as we ended our last debacle admitting that on a forum that things can be taken out of context, is when you say things like GY shoes are only as good as the glue that holds them. You exaggerate. Plain and simple. Yea sure you can make this claim, but then one can say that handwelted shoes are only as good as the maker welting them. If a maker is not careful he can make the feather (i.e. the wall that the thread is stitched to - for those that don't understand the terminology) very weak if he does not use his awl right. If he welts dry or too wet or cuts the feather too thin or too shallow etc. There are many cases where the leather that is holding the welt thread, the upper, the lining and insole together can be very weak and in fact break more prematurely then a glued rib, if not done properly. So there are lots of 'if's, and's or but's' in this world and I just don't think that you should continue to go on knocking down something that in fact, you are not apart of. You are a bespoke maker, the creme de la creme. Anyone with common sense knows that true handmade shoes are better than machine ones, but there is no point going around and telling people that the machine ones are just shit or compared to a Jo. S Banks or whatever suit. And you do this whether you realize it or not. And no I am not going to go through the 90 or so pages just to find an exact quote. Who has time for that?



I am not against you DW but I do think that you do take things a bit too far sometimes (not with me, but with others) and that you have a hard time just letting go. I do too, so I speak from experience.



Good day to you.

 



Spot on in every respect. I think we all agree that overblown marketing claims from some manufacturers are downright misleading and should be called out for what they are. But I feel much the same about many of the claims being made about GYW shoes and those who make them. It is just as important, IMO, that we call out those claims for what they are: overblown and downright misleading. And it's important because this is a pseudo-gospel being preached just about everywhere shoes are discussed on this forum. And the gullible are indeed misled. They should be encouraged to objectively evaluate the content of their Kool-aid. Contributions from people like yourself, Nick, Ron and others with a broad base of experience within the industry help immesurably in this reagard.
post #1303 of 1707
Quote:
Originally Posted by Handmadeshoes View Post

You are an early riser! Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

I only say wasting my time as I don't think anyone is convincing anyone here. If I was getting through, then it would not be time wasting. In reality I think that there are 2 teams and each comments simply to the spite the other and no one really listens to anyone on the opposing team.

I am not sure what deceptive claims you read that I was directing at you. I just said to be practical because sometimes your words come across as GY welted shoes should cease to exist because they are fraud, crap, nothing but glue. Maybe you don't realize how you come across? This is not an attack but rather a chance to step outside of yourself and see how you come across to others. If you don't care, so be it.

I am with you when say that prior to my involvement in this thread there was an attack on companies that were claiming to make the best shoes in the world by machine. I don't think like that. Handmade shoes are the best, hands down. We are on the same level on this and I HATE when machine made shoe companies claim to be handmade. It makes my blood boil that such lies can be spread and that foolish people believe them.

My only issue with you DW and this is not personal, but as we ended our last debacle admitting that on a forum that things can be taken out of context, is when you say things like GY shoes are only as good as the glue that holds them. You exaggerate. Plain and simple. Yea sure you can make this claim, but then one can say that handwelted shoes are only as good as the maker welting them. If a maker is not careful he can make the feather (i.e. the wall that the thread is stitched to - for those that don't understand the terminology) very weak if he does not use his awl right. If he welts dry or too wet or cuts the feather too thin or too shallow etc. There are many cases where the leather that is holding the welt thread, the upper, the lining and insole together can be very weak and in fact break more prematurely then a glued rib, if not done properly. So there are lots of 'if's, and's or but's' in this world and I just don't think that you should continue to go on knocking down something that in fact, you are not apart of. You are a bespoke maker, the creme de la creme. Anyone with common sense knows that true handmade shoes are better than machine ones, but there is no point going around and telling people that the machine ones are just shit or compared to a Jo. S Banks or whatever suit. And you do this whether you realize it or not. And no I am not going to go through the 90 or so pages just to find an exact quote. Who has time for that?

I am not against you DW but I do think that you do take things a bit too far sometimes (not with me, but with others) and that you have a hard time just letting go. I do too, so I speak from experience.

Good day to you.

It's simply defensiveness...and defensiveness without rhyme or reason...to say thing like I'm exaggerating or to criticize the way I say things. That's just a diversion...a way to change the subject because you have no logic or experience or knowledge to support your point of view, what you want to believe but cannot bear to examine.

It's not that I don't care, it's that you and your fellow travelers aren't capable of being objective about this issue.

And why should you be? You have taken it upon yourselves to defend the indefensible--as you yourself define it.

If HW is better than GY, then it is better. Period. To suggest anything else is equivocation--weasel words. It's Milton's Paradise Lost. Once you know, you can't pretend you don't know. Once you admit that HW is the better technique, nothing can put the apple back on the tree unbitten. If you admit the real differnce, the real possiblities, even only in your secret room, and yet continue to promote your GY shoes as "the finest shoes in England," you are practicing deception. As much as we'd all like to reclaim our innocence, it's not possible. Once you lose your virginity it cannot be regained and it's then a lie...nothing short...to continue to pose as a virgin.To pretend otherwise, and esp. to promulgate that pretense in advertising or even a blog is deceptive.

And if there's one thing I've learned in nearly 30 years on the Internet, it's that there's more gullible people, more willfully ignorant people, in the world than not. And no few in this thread.

I call it as I see it. More, I explain my reasons for my remarks--that right there is more than many here do...or can do. I don't pretend to knowledge I don't have or opinions that I have not earned.

At the same time, I have to assume that people are intelligent enough and objective enough to not rise to the defense of products/techniques that they don't have any personal stake in. That they are intelligent enough and objective enough to not distort or misconstrue or invent words that I did not say. More often than not...esp. here...I am disappointed. But I still have to believe it. I have to have something to cling to. It is a sign of faith and optimism and hope for the future. And probably a sign of insanity...if insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.

--
Edited by DWFII - 8/6/14 at 10:37am
post #1304 of 1707
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

It's simply defensiveness...and defensiveness without rhyme or reason...to say thing like I'm exaggerating or to criticize the way I say things. It's not that I don't care, it's that you and your fellow travelers aren't capable of being objective about this issue.

And why should you be? You have taken it upon yourselves to defend the indefensible--as you yourself define it.

If HW is better than GY, then it is better. Period. To suggest anything else is equivocation--weasel words. It's Milton's Paradise Lost. Once you know, you can't pretend you don't know. Once you admit that HW is the better technique, nothing can put the apple back on the tree unbitten. If you admit, even in secret, and continue to promote your GY shoes as "the finest shoes in England," you are practicing deception. As much as we'd all like to reclaim our innocence, it's not possible. Once you lose your virginity it cannot be regained and it's then a lie...nothing short...to continue to pose as a virgin.To pretend otherwise, and esp. to promulgate that pretense in advertising or even a blog is deceptive.

And if there's one thing I've learned in nearly 30 years on the Internet, it's that there's more gullible people, more willfully ignorant people, in the world than not. And no few in this thread.

I call it as I see it. I have to assume that people are intelligent enough and objective enough to not rise to the defense of products/techniques that they don't have any personal stake in. That they are intelligent enough and objective enough to not distort or misconstrue or invent words that I did not say. More often than not...esp. here...I am disappointed. But I still have to believe it. I have to have something to cling to. It is a sign of faith and optimism and hope for the future. And probably a sign of insanity...if insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.

I should have listened to my first gut and just never responded as I can clearly see that you are the one that actually twists things up to make everyone else but you be in the wrong. Whatever I don't care anymore. You go on preaching what you feel to be right. I will go on doing what I do and we can leave it at that.

But I can tell you with 100% certainty that you don't care about the industry as much as I do. You just care about your world within it. I care about the whole thing and I can objectively speak about every sector within it, whereas you cannot. Just because I sell GY welted shoes has never distorted my brain nor my ability to say that other shoes are better than my own, if you don't believe me, then I invite you to read the blog.

Good day.

To everyone else, don't believe everything you read, not even from me. Experience things for yourself and make up your own mind. Thankfully that freedom still exists.
post #1305 of 1707
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelastquestion View Post

Plenty of people here have been willing to listen and read. If someone doesn't agree with you, that doesn't mean they're not listening. They just don't agree.


I, nor anyone else in this thread, is claiming their Goodyear welted shoes are "the finest shoes in England".

See...I didn't say someone in this thread was saying that (although many are buying into it). You didn't read, you skimmed. words have meanings...there is a difference.

Bottom line is that you don't know what you're talking about. I seldom do this, and I don't like doing it, but you force the issue. Go to the Edward Green site. Enter. Read.

Then look at the links to the posts MoneyWellSpent posted earlier in this thread.

And wasn't it you that said that GY was better than HW? i know that Isbister said that as well. What does that mean if not GYwelted shoes are the finest anywhere?

You give the lie to your own words and any claim of credibility or authenticity.
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