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Sole Welting - Page 77

post #1141 of 1167

Quote:

Originally Posted by thelonius View Post
 

Can anyone say whether the ribbing shown on this Paraboot image is ordinary glued ribbing or is it glued to cover the flap of the insole leather which has been cut and folded up (as describe they do on some shoe ranges) ? Any observations would be welcome. Thanks.

 

paraboot_pied_eclate.jpg 

 

That just looks like standard gemming to me.  The "guts" of the cut and turned GY-welted insoles I've seen generally still leave the turned leather visible.  The gemming is cemented on after the leather is cut and turned, and it doesn't encapsulate the turned up leather such that you can't see it.  This is a picture from JM Weston, who still uses the cut and turned method on some models:


Edited by MoneyWellSpent - 2/15/14 at 9:17am
post #1142 of 1167
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post
 

 

That just looks like standard gemming to me.  The "guts" of the cut and turned GY-welted insoles I've seen generally still leave the turned leather visible.  It is cemented on after the leather is cut and turned, and it doesn't encapsulate the turned up leather such that you can't see it.  This is a picture from JM Weston, who still uses the cut and turned method on some models:


Thanks for your input and photo MoneyWellSpent. It is in that case another example of a company saying on their website, with diagrams to support, that they practice a construction that involves sewing the leather of the insole, but showing images like the one above that don't uphold the claim. So its deliberately misleading.

post #1143 of 1167
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelonius View Post
 


Thanks for your input and photo MoneyWellSpent. It is in that case another example of a company saying on their website, with diagrams to support, that they practice a construction that involves sewing the leather of the insole, but showing images like the one above that don't uphold the claim. So its deliberately misleading.

 

It looks like that may be the case unfortunately.  Either that, or they don't understand their own terminology, sort of like Meermin's "Hand-sewn Goodyear" line. 

post #1144 of 1167

Ground control to Major Tom....

 

What are the best SPI machines can achieve on a pair of shoes? Is the limitation for SPI the leather, technology, technique, or a combination of the three?

 

JS

post #1145 of 1167
On a somewhat related note, I'd be curious to know at what number of SPI more simply becomes more, rather than providing any additional functional benefit. Is more always better in any practical sense? Is there any point - even theoretical - at which more could be a detriment?
post #1146 of 1167
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerP View Post

On a somewhat related note, I'd be curious to know at what number of SPI more simply becomes more, rather than providing any additional functional benefit. Is more always better in any practical sense? Is there any point - even theoretical - at which more could be a detriment?

I have only a very limited knowledge of shoe construction compared to many of the people in this thread but I imagine one would encounter problems rather quickly with shell cordovan as the SPI increases. I do remember a conversation about cordovan pull tabs and how fragile they are (to certain kinds of stress, due to it;s low tensile strength. I believe DWFII does not like working with cordovan due to the difficulty of lasting cordovan). C&J uses nylon (?) pull tabs I believe, for this reason. I would imagine that the more SPI, the greater the chance of the cordovan pull tab tearing at the stitching. Of course this is not welting but the only example I could think of where more SPI could be detrimental. 

 

Edit: Statement regarding DWFII is incorrect. 

post #1147 of 1167
vestbash - thank you for your thoughts.
post #1148 of 1167
Quote:
Originally Posted by vestbash View Post

I believe DWFII does not like working with cordovan due to the difficulty of lasting cordovan).

Not true.
post #1149 of 1167

I have made a small edit to my comment. I do believe that I have read a comment of yours sometime in the past, perhaps about the difficulty of working with cordovan relative to other leathers. I am probably just misremembering. 

post #1150 of 1167
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Not true.

Interested to know why, if you don't mind.
post #1151 of 1167
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Not true.

Many of the London bespoke makers dislike working with cordovan due to lasting issues. Maybe this is where he got it from? Anyhow, it is clear that they don't routinely use it as you need to nearly beg them to do it. There are also always marks on the heels from the lasting process that you don't see with RTW cordovan shoes.
post #1152 of 1167
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrybrowne View Post


Many of the London bespoke makers dislike working with cordovan due to lasting issues. Maybe this is where he got it from? Anyhow, it is clear that they don't routinely use it as you need to nearly beg them to do it. There are also always marks on the heels from the lasting process that you don't see with RTW cordovan shoes.


Can't they just last the heel using inside lining or heel stiffeners?

 

When I put in my order I had to request G&G not to make a lasting hole at the heel counter; that hole is present in almost all of their bespoke samples...

post #1153 of 1167
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


Can't they just last the heel using inside lining or heel stiffeners?

When I put in my order I had to request G&G not to make a lasting hole at the heel counter; that hole is present in almost all of their bespoke samples...

I don't know the physics, but I suspect that due to the tensile strength of cordovan, more force is needed to be applied to the last. Maybe this makes other lasting techniques impossible?

All of my bespoke cordovan shoes have these marks at the heel (and the forefoot as well). It's not a big deal, but you just don't see them on RTW cordovan shoes.
post #1154 of 1167
Quote:
Originally Posted by JermynStreet View Post

Interested to know why, if you don't mind.

I have never had a problems lasting shell although very early on in my career I did have some shell tear quite drastically when blocking for boots.

But shell can be very irregular--you need two to three pieces to make a pair of shoes and it seems they seldom match up with regard to thickness or finish. Also shell has to be cut "just so" because it reflects light differently depending on how pieces, such as the vamp or quarters, are aligned on the shell.

You could blame the maker for cutting irregularities but the problems with varying substance and finish are either inherent in the nature of the product or on the tanner. That said, the only way for a maker to end up with any consistency is to buy large quantities of shell--futurities, essentially--and hand sort them.

It is my opinion that if the patterns are designed correctly, you don't need to draft (pull) a shoe very much to get it to go over the last. I have made cordovan shoes and the leather was stiff, but there were no tool marks left when I was done...anywhere.

And I don't use a tack to center the heel (as so many London makers do) so there's never a hole on the back of my shoes.
post #1155 of 1167
What are these holes? Does anybody have a picture?
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