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Things That Are Bothering You, Got You All Hibbeldy-Jibbeldy, or just downright pissed, RIGHT NOW! - Page 5072

post #76066 of 85704
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniscientCause View Post

Yea I can't remember the specifics but I imagine it's similar to bostons which is also terrible. That's one thing DC has done right, but I take a bus most days to work because it picks up a block away from my spot.

If you listened to Washingtonians, you'd think DC's subway was modeled after New Delhi's. It has it's problems but it's by far the best I've been on in the US (Chicago, Boston, NYC).
post #76067 of 85704
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

I dont really want to get into a nitty gritty argument about word choice and the aptitude of an analogy among other minor things
Who the fuck are you and what have you done with indesertum tongue.gif
post #76068 of 85704
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

I dont really want to get into a nitty gritty argument about word choice and the aptitude of an analogy among other minor things (especially with you cuz you're smarter and more stubborn than me)

But I'm curious what you think about electric vehicles and whether they should be taxed to make up for lost gas taxes seeing that you prefer public infrastructure to be paid for on a usage basis

Haha. I appreciate the compliment, but don't undersell yourself - you're plenty smart and stubborn. Kidding aside, I didn't mean to argue the point; I just wanted to point out my intentional word choice.

I absolutely think electric cars should be paying in via an alternative tax. That said, you have to be careful to make it equitable. For example, we just added a tax in Georgia where electric car owners have to pay every year to compensate for "lost" gas tax revenue. I agree in principle, but the math I saw said the fee was higher than what most people pay in gas tax every year. That's not fair, and it's a poor structure.

I'm actually of the opinion that the gas tax is becoming antiquated and will ultimately be obsolete. Even now, when the vast majority of cars burn gas, better fuel economy means less revenue. The problem is, I'm not sure how you preserve the rough per-mile model we have now, which I think is useful, without becoming incredibly and untenably intrusive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post

My biggest problem with cyclists is I often see them not following the rules of the road. I see them blow right through red lights and four way stops on a regular basis. That being said, I don't really have a problem moving around them when they are biking. Take your eyes off your phone and look at the road more than 15' in front of you.

Yes to all of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by otc View Post

The problem with the bike tax argument is that a lot of the taxes on cars are meant to cover wear and tear on the roads. Wear and tear is an exponential function (or maybe cubic, I don't know..) with regards to weight and bikes lead to essentially zero wear and tear. If that bike trip is instead of a car trip, it is actually avoiding wear and tear.

And its not like bikers don't pay taxes. Most of them still own cars and pay all of the relevant car taxes (or they take public transit/uber/taxi and pay the taxes through their fares). They paid sales tax on the bike. They pay local income taxes or property taxes.

And what would you propose as a bike tax? Do 4 year old kids have to pay it? Does it get paid on only new bikes or do we have to start tracking used bike sales? I can't imagine any number that would both be reasonable and actually generate any meaningful amount of revenue. People aren't going to pay $200 a year so they can have a $100 bike in their garage that they ride to the grocery store once a month. But if you only charge them $5 a year, the overhead in the system isn't going to be worth it.

To your first point, taxes aren't fixed. We can charge bikes less than we charge dump trucks, just like we already do with cars. Also, wear and tear isn't solely a function of use; infrastructure ages autonomous of use and has to be replaced. There's also cost associated with adding bike infrastructure, and a fair equity question over whether cyclists should get to use for free a resource everyone else has to pay to use.

And people who drive cars also already pay all of those taxes you list. What you haven't made clear is why they should pay all that and more while cyclists who wish to use the resource should only be expected to pay "all that" while the "more" falls to someone else.

I've already acknowledged that bikes present a unique challenge, and we'd have to account for things like kids on bikes, who shouldn't be expected to pay. As far as how much, this isn't a complicated thing to figure out. We price things all the time, both in the private and public sector. Balancing price, demand, etc isn't a new, unique, or prohibitive problem.

So, yes, this is a new issue that might take a novel approach, but that bit of complication doesn't provide a legitimate out for cyclists who want all of the rights of cars with none of the responsibility.
post #76069 of 85704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joffrey View Post

If you listened to Washingtonians, you'd think DC's subway was modeled after New Delhi's. It has it's problems but it's by far the best I've been on in the US (Chicago, Boston, NYC).

I've got no complaints with comparing it to the t in Boston.

It's leaps and bounds better. I mean it gets crowded during nats/wiz/caps games but that's too be expected.

One gripe is running every 20+ mins on the weekend.
post #76070 of 85704
I'm a pretty svelte dude, but I can still feel a small amount of tummy chub over my belt line when I sit down.

ffffuuuu.gif
post #76071 of 85704
You should click on "All My Posts" and read the ones in which you write about what you did eat.
post #76072 of 85704
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post #76073 of 85704
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post #76074 of 85704
I'm heading to Rhode Island this weekend. Finna make a BJ's run if anyone is interested in joining me
post #76075 of 85704
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Originally Posted by Neo_Version 7 View Post

I'm heading to Rhode Island this weekend. Finna make a BJ's run if anyone is interested in joining me

As in the wholesale club ?
post #76076 of 85704
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Originally Posted by OmniscientCause View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo_Version 7 View Post

I'm heading to Rhode Island this weekend. Finna make a BJ's run if anyone is interested in joining me

As in the wholesale club ?

it was code for "I'm heading to Rhode Island this weekend to give GreenFrog a BJ if any one is interesting in joining me"
post #76077 of 85704
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Originally Posted by OmniscientCause View Post

As in the wholesale club ?


Yes, sir
post #76078 of 85704
Quote:
Originally Posted by otc View Post

I think I drank too much coffee and water this morning.

Went to take a shit, which traditionally begins with a relieving of the bladder, and by the time I was done, I had to pee again.

Damn it, Greenfrog, stop stealing other people's avatars. That joak got old ages ago.
post #76079 of 85704
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post #76080 of 85704
This post got much longer than expected and probably isn't worth your time reading...read at own peril.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrG View Post

And people who drive cars also already pay all of those taxes you list. What you haven't made clear is why they should pay all that and more while cyclists who wish to use the resource should only be expected to pay "all that" while the "more" falls to someone else.

I've already acknowledged that bikes present a unique challenge, and we'd have to account for things like kids on bikes, who shouldn't be expected to pay. As far as how much, this isn't a complicated thing to figure out. We price things all the time, both in the private and public sector. Balancing price, demand, etc isn't a new, unique, or prohibitive problem.

So, yes, this is a new issue that might take a novel approach, but that bit of complication doesn't provide a legitimate out for cyclists who want all of the rights of cars with none of the responsibility.

I think my problem with a lot of these however is that nothing is stopping the people in cars from biking. They simply choose not to. They don't have to have a specific license, they don't have to have a lot of money (buy a $50 bike, use a $7 a day bike share, whatever), etc. The car drivers are paying for the privilege of polluting the environment, having bigass roads capable of holding multiple-ton vehicles built for them, and the dangers and externalities of the average idiot zooming around in a speeding hunk of metal.

We can charge people different amounts, but as I said, the wear and tear function is exponential, bikes are responsible for essentially zero (i.e. if you adjusted the taxes to account for it, the taxes would be pennies at the most).
The bike infrastructure question is separate....but we don't charge pedestrians for sidewalks. We decided it was better for the city that people be able to walk around instead of getting in their car to drive, and that they should be able to do it safely instead of in the street, so we built them some sidewalks. We have jogging trails too even if not every car driver uses them. Similarly, a lot of cities are realizing that replacing some car trips with bike trips is good for the city and deciding to invest in infrastructure (and I would say some are going overboard...some "protected" bike lane designs are idiotic).
The natural aging of the streets? Well, that would happen without any bikers, and it is only the cars that really need the streets. Without the cars, bikes could handle much narrower roads with much thinner pavement (or none at all).

And as to pricing...yeah, we price things all of the time, but I still see no way to do this. You want to create a new government agency that taxes bikes? Some DMV employee is going to have to figure out that you owe $2.50 for your clunker while that guy over there owes $15 for his carbon road bike that he rides 1000 miles a year (and that other guy owes zero because while he owns 3 mountain bikes, he only rides them off road)? It just isn't rational to try and tax the usage some commodity item--unless you think the British tax on TVs is a great idea.
Or maybe we take the absurdly restrictive step of requiring cyclists to have a license for their 25lb manually powered device. Charge them $15 a year for it? Maybe get a couple of million dollars out of it at most...but have rampant enforcement issues and still make barely a fraction of what car taxes entail? I'm sure lots of bike haters would love to see a license, but it is still absurd (and its not like drivers licenses prevent all of the people I see diddling with their phone while driving every day).

I mean...its a fricking bicycle. It is a 2-wheeled pedal powered recreation device not a multi-ton, many-thousand dollar piece of machinery. Most people use them like they use a skate board or roller blades...for fun and a little exercise, maybe to get somewhere. These things should just be dealt with like any other recreational activity that not everybody chooses to participate in--it is good for the city and is paid for out of general funds just like parks, trails, sidewalks, gardens, public art, etc.

But I guess I should probably stop polluting this thread with this...many people out there have made the same arguments in a much better way, so I doubt I am going to change any minds that those people haven't changed (and AFAIK, none of you are running for office so I don't have to worry too much about you trying to create some silly tax).

Edited by otc - 7/16/15 at 12:02pm
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