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On suicide - Page 2

post #16 of 153
Suicide is a complicated topic. I mean, in some societies ritualized suicides are not unknown while ours, expressing a concrete suicidal ideation will get you locked up for observation on suicide watch. In fact, if you express a concrete plan to a health care provider and that person does not take certain defined steps and you off yourself, that provider might well have some litigation exposure. It's a real example of the paternalism that runs through much of our society.

One of my older brothers hung himself. He moved from Canada to the US to join the USAF and fight in Vietnam. He was never the same when he came home and did it in the late 70s.
post #17 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhood View Post

Tried it a couple of times. Never had the stones to actually succeed though.
It has always confused me that suicide is the "cowards way out". Naturally it takes strength to go through shit and keep standing but there were two main arguments that always struck me while I was going through it:
1. It takes some serious, concious, full-on truth telling to do it. How often can you honestly say that you'e made a decision with every cell in your body? Each pill you swallow is a behaviour that has to truly reflect your dearest wish in life. Saying "I Do" on your wedding day, signing that mortgage? They all have doubt, even if its just that 1%. But the day you choose to end it all? Its a moment of assertiveness in what is usually a sea of uncertainty, difficulty and pointlessness. Maybe it is the cowards way out, but but 99% of you wouldn't have the balls to open that door.
2. What if it is a rational choice? What if you genuinely believe that your life has reached and surpassed a climax and that the only potential future is one that you will find unfulfilled and humiliating? What if you aren't depressed, but have decided that you have no use for this "gift" of life that was forced upon you?
MASSIVE FUCKING NOTE: I do not, nor would I ever, advocate suicide. I just believe that having gone through it that people have little to offer but platitudes which are really of no help to anyone. "things will get better" and "you have so much to live for" mean nothing to someone who has considered killing themselves for more than 4 hours. Looking at the rationale through a paradigm of something other than pity could help anyone who has to deal with this issue with a loved one.

frown.gif

hope you're over that, man
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Suicide is a complicated topic. I mean, in some societies ritualized suicides are not unknown while ours, expressing a concrete suicidal ideation will get you locked up for observation on suicide watch. In fact, if you express a concrete plan to a health care provider and that person does not take certain defined steps and you off yourself, that provider might well have some litigation exposure. It's a real example of the paternalism that runs through much of our society.
One of my older brothers hung himself. He moved from Canada to the US to join the USAF and fight in Vietnam. He was never the same when he came home and did it in the late 70s.

wow. sad to hear piob...

++++

oh I remember: sister of a classmate killed herself sometime in the 90s. their dad was murdered (gangland style, riddled with bullets, with my classmate beside him in the car) few years before that and I could only assume that it kinda affected her. anyway, she threw a party on her birthday and right after drank a bottle of drain cleaner. I found out that was a pretty painful way to go.
post #18 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by acidboy View Post


oh I remember: sister of a classmate killed herself sometime in the 90s. their dad was murdered (gangland style, riddled with bullets, with my classmate beside him in the car) few years before that and I could only assume that it kinda affected her. anyway, she threw a party on her birthday and right after drank a bottle of drain cleaner. I found out that was a pretty painful way to go.


Heavy frown.gif.

The kind of despair one must feel in order to take their own life in such a way is unimaginable.
My mother is a social worker turned counsellor/chaplain, so she deals with suicides a couple of times a month. She's still, after 40 years, deeply and profoundly affected by it.

post #19 of 153
probably 5 or 6 acquaintances, no one close to me.
post #20 of 153
I have suicide in my family history on my mom's side.

My great Uncle was a tailor, and a damned good one. He used to make clothes (specifically overcoats) for Flo Ziegfeld, creator of Ziegfeld's Follies, and was in a marriage he was unhappy in. He went to his brothers and told them he was going to leave and start a new life for himself in SF. His brother Mike told him if he did that he'd dishonor the family name (this is 1931 btw). The Friday after Thanksgiving he sent his wife to the store to buy him cigars. When she came back, she found him dead in the front of their house with his cutting scissors planted in his stomach. It was always just "family lore" until I began doing family history research. I found his death certificate and the COD was "laceration of the abdomen) with a contributary cause listed as "manic depressive insanity". Pretty sad shit. I have a feeling he may have been gay, and that was a part of it...nothing concrete, just a hunch.

My cousin also killed himself in the 1970's. He was a lawyer, and was involved in a horrible car accident which made him a quadriplegic. A few weeks later he was found dead of an overdose I think. Obviously he had help, which makes it even sadder.

I've struggled with depression myself, sometime pretty bad, but never had I ever come close to that. I'm very scared for my children though, and hope they never ever have these issues, but know its out of my hands...
post #21 of 153
Two of my friends from high school...

The one I knew besr jumped out of the window from his 15th tower block flat...

God bless his soul..

He was twenty years old.
post #22 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhood View Post

Tried it a couple of times. Never had the stones to actually succeed though.
It has always confused me that suicide is the "cowards way out". Naturally it takes strength to go through shit and keep standing but there were two main arguments that always struck me while I was going through it:
1. It takes some serious, concious, full-on truth telling to do it. How often can you honestly say that you'e made a decision with every cell in your body? Each pill you swallow is a behaviour that has to truly reflect your dearest wish in life. Saying "I Do" on your wedding day, signing that mortgage? They all have doubt, even if its just that 1%. But the day you choose to end it all? Its a moment of assertiveness in what is usually a sea of uncertainty, difficulty and pointlessness. Maybe it is the cowards way out, but but 99% of you wouldn't have the balls to open that door.
2. What if it is a rational choice? What if you genuinely believe that your life has reached and surpassed a climax and that the only potential future is one that you will find unfulfilled and humiliating? What if you aren't depressed, but have decided that you have no use for this "gift" of life that was forced upon you?
MASSIVE FUCKING NOTE: I do not, nor would I ever, advocate suicide. I just believe that having gone through it that people have little to offer but platitudes which are really of no help to anyone. "things will get better" and "you have so much to live for" mean nothing to someone who has considered killing themselves for more than 4 hours. Looking at the rationale through a paradigm of something other than pity could help anyone who has to deal with this issue with a loved one.

I went through the same thing, never went through with trying it, but go to the point where my roommate would call me all the time to check up on me.

The worst part was hearing from the few people I opened up to that "How can you think that way? You've got so much to live for. Any of us would kill to be in your shoes." My immediate thought would always be "great, if I'm not happy now, then, when will I ever be?" or more self-loathing about what an ungrateful person I was being. Ugh. Depression's awful. When you have severe depression, it's like how Steve Earle's character "Waylon" described addiction in The Wire. You have something inside that wants to kill you. And it will always be there.
post #23 of 153
I don't have time to kill myself. I'll probably wait til retirement.
post #24 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by acidboy View Post

frown.gif
hope you're over that, man

Yeah I am, things are better now thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewYorkRanger View Post

I've struggled with depression myself, sometime pretty bad, but never had I ever come close to that. I'm very scared for my children though, and hope they never ever have these issues, but know its out of my hands...

Sorry to read that NYR, thats a harsh skeleton to have in the family closet.

Never think that its out of your hands. One of the most supportive things I had were parents who understood (and had also been through depression). They didn't ask questions, just got my to see a spych and worked on distracting me by going on days out and making me do tasks around the house all day. You'd be amazed at home much a good support network and keeping busy can do for someone who is suffering from depression. Its not about getting to the "root" of a problem or having a guard day and night, its about having a few hours each day where that animal inside of you isn't clawing its way out through your chest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lasbar View Post

Two of my friends from high school...
The one I knew besr jumped out of the window from his 15th tower block flat...
God bless his soul..
He was twenty years old.

Very sad to hear. That appears to be one of the toughest times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLMountainMan View Post

I went through the same thing, never went through with trying it, but go to the point where my roommate would call me all the time to check up on me.
The worst part was hearing from the few people I opened up to that "How can you think that way? You've got so much to live for. Any of us would kill to be in your shoes." My immediate thought would always be "great, if I'm not happy now, then, when will I ever be?" or more self-loathing about what an ungrateful person I was being. Ugh. Depression's awful. When you have severe depression, it's like how Steve Earle's character "Waylon" described addiction in The Wire. You have something inside that wants to kill you. And it will always be there.

Amen. Glad you got through it. IMHO its all about finding things to do that mean you never fall back into the darkest thought patterns, but there is always that sneaking feeling that if you let your guard down you might suddenly slip back....
post #25 of 153
Weird to see this topic today. This morning, walking my daughter to school, we walked by the aftermath of a suicide. A block was cordoned off by police tape and up the street, you could see the body of the jumper, covered by a blanket, with a bunch of people milling about (the body reminded me of the dead witch in the wizard of Oz movie - just some feet sticking out). My daughter asked me what was going on and I made the game-time decision to white lie and say an accident.
post #26 of 153
Damn thats never a cheery way to start the day.

I'd say that even a priest would say that lie was a safe one!
post #27 of 153
Since we're spilling our guts, I had a cousin who committed suicide when I was a teenager. He was a bit older than me. I was 16 when he killed himself and he was 21, I believe. He was just old enough to be older without being uncool. He was my hero - I seriously thought he was the coolest thing in the world. One day he up and shot himself. I think it was over a girl or something, but I never did get the whole story.

It really fucked up my aunt. He and I were a lot alike. We were both long-haired musicians, which was weird enough on that side of the family, and we were similar looking. I guess we were similar in other ways, too. For years and years afterward my aunt used to have trouble when she saw me. Every time there was a family gathering she would tell me how much I reminded her of my cousin and get all emotional. She even did it at my wedding. I hated it because, even though I couldn't understand what she'd dealt with, I knew losing her son and seeing someone else's son so much like her own must have been horrible for her, but, man, it was hard to deal with.

I had another family member who killed herself, as well, but that story for another time. It was really, really awful.
post #28 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhood View Post

Amen. Glad you got through it. IMHO its all about finding things to do that mean you never fall back into the darkest thought patterns, but there is always that sneaking feeling that if you let your guard down you might suddenly slip back....

Exactly. I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop. I found that idle time was the worst. Whenever I feel it coming on, (I dunno about you, but I usually actually get a physical feeling in my chest, like anxiety, but a little different), I crank up the exercise, hiking, and home projects. Act happy even if I don't feel it, avoid the Danny Downers in my social circle, and have lots of sex. Works every time.
post #29 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLMountainMan View Post

Exactly. I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop. I found that idle time was the worst. Whenever I feel it coming on, (I dunno about you, but I usually actually get a physical feeling in my chest, like anxiety, but a little different), I crank up the exercise, hiking, and home projects. Act happy even if I don't feel it, avoid the Danny Downers in my social circle, and have lots of sex. Works every time.

This is a sound approach, medically speaking. Exercise is at least as effective as medication at treating depression and anxiety, and some studies say it's even better than meds.
post #30 of 153
Why I don't advocate violence, even when on principle, I think it's merited:

I have a second cousin in London that was standing outside a bar when a fight broke out. He wasn't involved in the fight but he got knocked over and when he fell, his neck landed on the curb. He was paralyzed at the age of 21. He later attempted suicide.

After I learned about that I thought about the fights I'd been in as a kid and other stupid things I'd done and thought god damn, I'm lucky.
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