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killing Trayvon - Page 369

post #5521 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal View Post

I think one was half white, which is generally considered black (see Obama, the first black president), but that none where "all white," for whatever that is worth.

No the guy in the middle has a white mom. We can call him black for whatever purpose that is supposed to serve. The kid on the right is white. I mean, I don't have his family history in front of me but he has white skin and straight hair, so unless he's applying for scholarships he's going to be called white.

post #5522 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post

Is it possible that Zimmerman wasn't some hardcore racist or even had perceptions that differ widely from the mainstream of America but that race still played a role? I mean it pretty much OBVIOUSLY did on SF where the scenario was almost immediately of the "let's paint the teenager that got shot as some sort of street thug" variety. It also did in various media viewpoint, from the scenario you outline (white man kills black child) to "there's a problem in the black community so this guy got shot" bullshit you people are only too happy to take from Mr Taco O'Reilly.

That was not the scenario on SF. Go back and read this thread from the beginning. Some of us were quite antagonistic to Mr. Z and saw him as another tough guy bully failed cop living in one of these terrible community associations who let his little bit of community policing power get the better of him.

As the evidence was revealed it became quite clear this was not the case, but rather that Trayvon was a street thug who almost certainly precipitated the violence in this event.
post #5523 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

There's no doubt, at least in my mind, a bit of "gotcha" is influencing things at the moment in regards to interracial murder and crimes and that is probably human nature. I think though some more important points are being missed.

First, there is still nothing to convince me Zimmerman is racist. This is important as it is a given to tens of millions of Americans that race was got Martin killed. This is just a metaphysical certitude to Martin "supporters." (And wtf at that term? Supporters? What exactly are they supporting?) There is also no way a person can look at the whole phenomena and not admit the MSM went right for "white man kills black child!" The edited 911 tape that was played repeatedly should be enough to convince anyone the MSM literally helped create the narrative.

Now the MSM is treading very lightly about race in the recent killings of whites by blacks. Let us not jump to conclusions. HEY! Some of the killers are mixed race so it's not racial! White Hispanic anyone? Directly racist tweets are just kids mouthing off, right? Cannot hold that against them.

Another thing I am hearing is that these black killers were arrested and Zimmerman wasn't show the inherent racism in the system. Well, ZImmerman was cuffed and taken into custody. He was detained and questioned for several hours. It's not like the cops on the scene gave him a high five and sent him on his merry way. So it's becoming almost unfalsifiable for people in regards to things. Oh, and never mind arresting murders are what is supposed to happen.

Don't know, just some ramblings and I have to run for several hours of meetings. Hope you guys solve all the world's problems by the time I get back!

I think I've made my feelings known on the media coverage of the Zimmerman incident: it was utterly shameful. But the rw media hasn't exactly been princes about this whole thing, reporting a killing by "3 black teens" even while they are printing a photo that includes a white kid. Just shows me that them getting it right in Zimmerman was simply a broken clock situation.

For my part I divide people into "part of the problem" and "part of the solution". Race-baiting and conclusion jumping isn't any better because the other side did it first. It doesn't balance things out, it just piles shit on top of shit.
post #5524 of 6250
I don't think one can reasonably a single attitude or mindset to the thread generally. Different posters obviously brought different perspectives and different axes grind.
post #5525 of 6250
So we went from what boils down to a proven non racist case of self defense that was labeled as a racial crime to what essentially boils down to a crime that from all indications has elements of actually being a racial hate crime. Right? So why would anyone say one is being racist for calling it what is is? At least that's what I sort of think is being said by some here.
post #5526 of 6250
I think these data points make a really pretty pattern.

post #5527 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal View Post

Just curious Fumma, but is it not possible that Trayvon was some sort of street thug?

Or that Z had good reason to be on the look out for young black men considering that there had been several recent robberies in the area carried out by young black men?

I actually agree with your assumption, Z was likely not a ragging racist but race did play a role in his noticing Trayvon. So did age and gender.


If Trayvon had been white and things went as they went the general sentiment could be that he had been too hot blooded like male teenagers can be and this precipitated his demise but he certainly wouldn't be seen as a street thug.
post #5528 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane's View Post

So we went from what boils down to a proven non racist case of self defense that was labeled as a racial crime to what essentially boils down to a crime that from all indications has elements of actually being a racial hate crime. Right? So why would anyone say one is being racist for calling it what is is? At least that's what I sort of think is being said by some here.

It's certainly possible that it was a hate crime. The one kid certainly seems to have had some awful things to say about white people. But he also had two accomplices, one of whom was white and one of whom was white-ish. That's part of why I think hate crime laws are stupid: motivations are usually complicated. I was just reading about the Matthew Shepard case the other day. Common wisdom is that he was killed for being gay. Maybe that was part of it, but tbh it just sounds like they were a couple of drug addled psychos who were trying to rob the kid when things went wrong.

Anyway, what I really object to is shoehorning in every case where there's a black perp and a white victim, like the WWII vet case. At that point, you are just saying "see, black people murder whites!", which at this point has nothing to do with Zimmerman, Trayvon, or any of it.
post #5529 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane's View Post

So we went from what boils down to a proven non racist case of self defense that was labeled as a racial crime to what essentially boils down to a crime that from all indications has elements of actually being a racial hate crime. Right? So why would anyone say one is being racist for calling it what is is? At least that's what I sort of think is being said by some here.

Race did play a role in the Zimmerman incident especially at the start of the process when he did racially profile the victim.

If T had been white ,the all sad chain of events would not have happened..

You can argue that point ad vitam eternam but it is a fact .

The other case is more puzzling with a black teen ranting about killing white guys and having during the incident (euphemism) a white accomplice...

In that story too, an element of racial hate is to be taken into account.

All these incidents are based on complicated stimuli ,emotions and reactions creating unpredictable and tragic chains of events.

Trying to coldly analizing them through reason and analytical decision making processes is just futile.

It is why they're so fascinating...
post #5530 of 6250
There is a difference between profiling with what race someone is as part of a demographic breakdown. This is done in marketing all day long and it's not called racism. This is far different than targeting a person based on their race and then acting on it in a criminal manner especially if it involves harm to that person's physical or mental well being. I think most people get these two things confused when the talk turns to being racist, racial hate crimes and so on.
post #5531 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane's View Post

There is a difference between profiling with what race someone is as part of a demographic breakdown. This is done in marketing all day long and it's not called racism. This is far different than targeting a person based on their race and then acting on it in a criminal manner especially if it involves harm to that person's physical or mental well being. I think most people get these two things confused when the talk turns to being racist, racial hate crimes and so on.

Let's agree to disagree on that point..
post #5532 of 6250
[quote name="lasbar" url="/t/292952/killing-trayvon/5520#post_6553034"

Let's agree to disagree on that point..[/quote]
post #5533 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by lasbar View Post

Race did play a role in the Zimmerman incident especially at the start of the process when he did racially profile the victim.

If T had been white ,the all sad chain of events would not have happened..

You can argue that point ad vitam eternam but it is a fact .

The other case is more puzzling with a black teen ranting about killing white guys and having during the incident (euphemism) a white accomplice...

In that story too, an element of racial hate is to be taken into account.

All these incidents are based on complicated stimuli ,emotions and reactions creating unpredictable and tragic chains of events.

Trying to coldly analizing them through reason and analytical decision making processes is just futile.

It is why they're so fascinating...

Given the rest of your post, how can you state, with any certitude that "If T had been white the all sad chain of events would not have happened"?

IMO, the incident was more likely to happen given that Trayvon was black, but also entirely possible that Z would have followed a suspicious looking white teenager and shot that teenager while being beat up.
post #5534 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by lasbar View Post

Race did play a role in the Zimmerman incident especially at the start of the process when he did racially profile the victim.

If T had been white ,the all sad chain of events would not have happened..

Trayvon fit the description of the people who had recently been committing crime in that neighborhood. Is it reasonable for this to warrant a higher level of suspicion? Even if you take Trayvon's race completely out of the equation, his behavior would certainly appear suspicious to anyone on neighborhood watch.

Going beyond that, let's pretend that neighborhood was relatively crime free. Given the overall crime stats throughout the country, is it reasonable for someone in Zimmerman's situation to be more suspicious of a young black man than they would a young white male of the same age? The right cliche here is that we are only human. If a segment of the population is committing such a disproportionate amount of the crime, they are going to be profiled. I'd suspect anyone claiming otherwise is full of shit. To some degree, everyone judges strangers based on certain physical characteristics. This is not an excuse for the genuine racism that still exists in America, but it's important to draw a distinction here.
post #5535 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post

If Trayvon had been white and things went as they went the general sentiment could be that he had been too hot blooded like male teenagers can be and this precipitated his demise but he certainly wouldn't be seen as a street thug.

In this killing of the Australian guy, have you seen the perps referred to as two street thugs and a guy who was too hot blooded?
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