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killing Trayvon - Page 365

post #5461 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarphe View Post

there are more poor people in the china or india why is the total incarceration rate lower in those countries when compared to the rate in the us? assuming what you are saying is true one woudl assume it should be higher.

I have no desire to compare apples to goldfish.
post #5462 of 6250
This will not end well.
post #5463 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post

I have no desire to compare apples to goldfish.

but poverty is the driving factor of crime so really the us in general should have one of the lowest incarcerations rates instead it leads the way with negroes leading in the way. If poverty really is driving factor how do you explain the us leading the world in this sector? Pick developing country x and the rate should exceed leaps and bounds the us rate.
I will give a counter example, not the best, based upon your concepts indian settlements I have been in panama should be ripe with crime....but i could walk around with out be assaulted for my worldy goods and we are dealign with people that make less a than dollar a day
post #5464 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Poverty doesn't come close to explaining the disparity, but thanks for playing.

That's because one single statistic can never close to explaining a complex, real-world problem. FACT: Blacks are 3 times as likely to live below the poverty line than whites. FACT: Black poverty is more common in highly policed, densely populated urban areas. White poverty is mostly rural in nature. Does that come a little closer to explaining things, or do you want to stick with the blacks are more inclined to criminality arguement...which by the way is TEXTBOOK racism.

Racism: : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
post #5465 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarphe View Post

but poverty is the driving factor of crime so really the us in general should have one of the lowest incarcerations rates instead it leads the way with negroes leading in the way. If poverty really is driving factor how do you explain the us leading the world in this sector? Pick developing country x and the rate should exceed leaps and bounds the us rate.
I will give a counter example, not the best, based upon your concepts indian settlements I have been in panama should be ripe with crime....but i could walk around with out be assaulted for my worldy goods and we are dealign with people that make less a than dollar a day

Incarceration rates and crime are not the same thing.
post #5466 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarphe View Post

there are more poor people in the china or india why is the total incarceration rate lower in those countries when compared to the rate in the us? assuming what you are saying is true one woudl assume it should be higher.

Poverty is relative to local conditions.
post #5467 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post

That's because one single statistic can never close to explaining a complex, real-world problem. FACT: Blacks are 3 times as likely to live below the poverty line than whites. FACT: Black poverty is more common in highly policed, densely populated urban areas. White poverty is mostly rural in nature. Does that come a little closer to explaining things, or do you want to stick with the blacks are more inclined to criminality arguement...which by the way is TEXTBOOK racism.

Racism: : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

"FACT" -- the poverty line is arbitrarily defined by relative income and has little bearing on absolute material quality of life. Poverty in America ain't what it used to be. As has been detailed many times before, people living in poverty in America have, by most material standards -- living spaces, appliances, vehicles, conveniences -- a better quality of life than average people in places like Europe. See this document, for example: http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2007/08/how-poor-are-americas-poor-examining-the-plague-of-poverty-in-america

I don't have time to set you straight on the statistics, but I find it amusing that you assume the disparity in criminality is either explained by poverty or inherent racial differences, as if culture could have nothing to do with it.
post #5468 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post

FACT: Blacks are 3 times as likely to live below the poverty line than whites.

Single parent households headed by young mothers is a surefire way to increase poverty rates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post

FACT: Black poverty is more common in highly policed, densely populated urban areas. White poverty is mostly rural in nature.

A fair point, but rural or not, poor whites don't embrace a cultural that glorifies gangs, drug dealing, violence and an attitude that is all together at odds with being a contributing member of society. Poor whites listen to hip hop music, but it's not an integral part of their culture. Hip hop has become so intertwined with the black community that it has made it all the way to the White House. Who would have thought that a far left President would be buddy buddy with a 1 percenter that made his fortune by glorifying the same behavior that destroys black communities.

Do you see the problem here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post

do you want to stick with the blacks are more inclined to criminality arguement...which by the way is TEXTBOOK racism.

For the above reasons, I want to stick with the argument that says blacks are more inclined to commit crime. You can write it off as "textbook racism," which is the single most important thing you can do to ensure that this problem never goes away. If you want a textbook definition, racism would imply that a person's skin color, regardless of their position in life, makes them inferior to other races. I haven't seen this from any posters here, have you?
post #5469 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post

Racism: : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race


Criminals aren't inferior to non-criminals. That's a value judgment with little basis in fact. Some of the best people I've met spent time in prison. Some of the worst carry a badge and put them there.
post #5470 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

Poverty is relative to local conditions.
you are correct, int he developing world there is actual poverty, people dying becuase of lack of food, water or medicine where as how many people in the us face that threat, not malnutrition but actual death. poverty maybe relative, but it seems in the us being impoverished partially means not having internet or a PS3.
post #5471 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post

Incarceration rates and crime are not the same thing.
but they are correlated
but another on tack your indians are just as impoverished and historically abused by the whites. do they have the same percentage of the populataion incarcerated as the african americans?
post #5472 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by suited View Post

Single parent households headed by young mothers is a surefire way to increase poverty rates.
A fair point, but rural or not, poor whites don't embrace a cultural that glorifies gangs, drug dealing, violence and an attitude that is all together at odds with being a contributing member of society. Poor whites listen to hip hop music, but it's not an integral part of their culture. Hip hop has become so intertwined with the black community that it has made it all the way to the White House. Who would have thought that a far left President would be buddy buddy with a 1 percenter that made his fortune by glorifying the same behavior that destroys black communities.

Are you seriously blaming rap music? The Rockefeller Drug laws went into effect in 1973. The Anti Drug Abuse Act which set crack to powder sentencing guidelines at 100:1 was signed into law in 1986. These are directly linked to the increase of incarceration rates in the Black community and predate hip-hop's primacy by a few years. Sorry, but hip-hop isn't the cause of criminality. It just isn't

Quote:
For the above reasons, I want to stick with the argument that says blacks are more inclined to commit crime. You can write it off as "textbook racism," which is the single most important thing you can do to ensure that this problem never goes away. If you want a textbook definition, racism would imply that a person's skin color, regardless of their position in life, makes them inferior to other races. I haven't seen this from any posters here, have you?

You indicated that one race was predisposed to criminality. Claiming that you didn't directly call them inferior is a spurious argument.
post #5473 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarphe View Post

but they are correlated
but another on tack your indians are just as impoverished and historically abused by the whites. do they have the same percentage of the populataion incarcerated as the african americans?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/10/us/embed-america-tribal-justice

I'd say that adjusted for population density, Native Americans have even higher incarceration rates. Do you thnk Native American culture lends itself to criminality.
post #5474 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post

That's because one single statistic can never close to explaining a complex, real-world problem. FACT: Blacks are 3 times as likely to live below the poverty line than whites. FACT: Black poverty is more common in highly policed, densely populated urban areas. White poverty is mostly rural in nature. Does that come a little closer to explaining things, or do you want to stick with the blacks are more inclined to criminality arguement...which by the way is TEXTBOOK racism.

Racism: : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

so based upon this woudl you say that most of the whites that are in prison come from rural areas?
post #5475 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post

Try me. Funny how racism and cowardice seem to go hand-in-hand.
It would be satisfying to think that. I'm not sure how one would reach such a conclusion, however, aside from semantic gamesmanship or random anecdotes that don't really establish the broader point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by harvey_birdman View Post

Criminals aren't inferior to non-criminals. That's a value judgment with little basis in fact. Some of the best people I've met spent time in prison. Some of the worst carry a badge and put them there.
Kind of depends on your definition of superiority and how you phrase the generalization, no? I've certainly had experiences comparable to your examples that tend to demonstrate the problems with attempting to intellectually arbitrage between gross generalizations and individual situations. Completely agree with you that, which I take to be one of your main points. But even allowing for many imperfections in the justice system, it doesn't seem completely crazy to assume that certain commonly-held social values or behavioral tendencies skew different -- on a grossly generalized level -- among criminals and non-criminals.
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