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post #4876 of 6250
Nobody gave a shot about the OJ trial other than as an odd public spectacle. A pop culture event. La was too wrapped up in the aftermath of the Rodney king and Reginald Denny tragedies to give a shot about orenthal.

And name back, of course it was a tragedy. Nobody disputes that and I haven't seen anybody do so at all.
post #4877 of 6250
Also, let's be clear--there is indeed a great deal out of outrage about black-on-black crime and black teenagers being killed by their peers. There are hundreds of protests, events, fora, and marches about this every year in the black community nation-wide. It is disingenuous to suggest otherwise. The question is why do more people beyond the local, directly affected communities not pay attention to this issue? Why does it not get play in the media? Why are so many people unaware of it? Why don't more progressives in unaffected areas care about this as much as Trayvon Martin?

These are all reasonable questions. But to suggest that black communities are unconcerned with black-on-black violence is both a red-herring and patently untrue.

My personal opinion on why this case garnered so much outrage and attention is a simple one: in the case of black on black violence, there is a feeling at least that the perpetrators will be punished. Certainly many do indeed go to prison. I think there in fact would be more national outrage and attention, including from non-black people, if there were an epidemic of murderers in the black community going uninvestigated or unconvicted.

It's natural for people to find special outrage when it feels to them that justice is going unserved--that no one is attempting to punish an immoral act. We all feel this way, no matter our political leanings. It causes all of us greater ire when we feel that the system is not acknowledging or attempting to deal with a moral wrong. We may disagree on the wrongs, but we all have a similar reaction when what we find wrong is not addressed by an institutional response to mitigate or condemn.

The concern does not spring from an epidemic of white men killing unarmed black boys--statistically, most black men are killed by black men, and more black men kill white victims than vice-versa. People are not ignorant of these facts. However, it is generally felt that the system does try to punish black men who kill each other or white victims. While there is outrage and pain and dismay about the inability demonstrated to prevent such crimes, there is at least a sense that the perpetrators of such crimes will likely face punishment.

The concern about cases like Zimmerman's is a concern that, because of racial bias, white men are more likely to be able to kill black victims and escape punishment--that their moral wrongs are not condemned by our society sufficiently. Even if you disagree with this notion, even if you think such racial bias does not exist and white men are not more likely to escape punishment when killing black victims, it should be easy for you to understand why someone who does see white men being more likely to escape punishment of moral wrongs because of the race to be very troubling. You should be able to understand why outrage is a reasonable response if that is your opinion.
post #4878 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Upward View Post

Was my reply to this thread removed? 

???

post #4879 of 6250
Nameback, you sound so responsible and coherent. Good to see.
post #4880 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by NameBack View Post


The concern about cases like Zimmerman's is a concern that, because of racial bias, white men are more likely to be able to kill black victims and escape punishment--that their moral wrongs are not condemned by our society sufficiently. Even if you disagree with this notion, even if you think such racial bias does not exist and white men are not more likely to escape punishment when killing black victims, it should be easy for you to understand why someone who does see white men being more likely to escape punishment of moral wrongs because of the race to be very troubling. You should be able to understand why outrage is a reasonable response if that is your opinion.

If only ZImmerman was white...

And there is a distinct difference between "outrage" and what is going on here. The level of personal investment in patently non-factual narratives is appalling.
post #4881 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsstillmatt View Post

Nobody gave a shot about the OJ trial other than as an odd public spectacle. A pop culture event. La was too wrapped up in the aftermath of the Rodney king and Reginald Denny tragedies to give a shot about orenthal.

And name back, of course it was a tragedy. Nobody disputes that and I haven't seen anybody do so at all.

Also, Trayvon died more than a year ago. The time to mourn him was then. He didn't get re-killed on Saturday. The "mourning" is over not being able to put a man in prison, and that's what bothers me. It's not sadness, it's unfulfilled aggression.
post #4882 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by englade321 View Post

It takes a pretty strong idealogical bias to read that as a statement that " its still clear Zimmerman is a racist " rather than simply as a springboard for a rant intended to further the ACLUs agenda but then using this case and all of the irrelevant hubbub surrounding it to further one own agenda seems to be order day

Quote:
Originally Posted by englade321 View Post

It takes a pretty strong idealogical bias to read that as a statement that " its still clear Zimmerman is a racist " rather than simply as a springboard for a rant intended to further the ACLUs agenda , but then using this case and all of the irrelevant hubbub surrounding it to further ones own agenda seems to be order day

Jimmy Two Times

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-PHCaf9JnE

I'm gonna get the paper, get the paper!

And now back to Trayvon, Zimmerman, Justice, Racism, and CE
post #4883 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsstillmatt View Post

Nobody gave a shot about the OJ trial other than as an odd public spectacle. A pop culture event. La was too wrapped up in the aftermath of the Rodney king and Reginald Denny tragedies to give a shot about orenthal.

And name back, of course it was a tragedy. Nobody disputes that and I haven't seen anybody do so at all.

No, I agree, I think most everyone does consider it tragic on some level. I just think that sometimes that gets lost in the vitriol of political debate, and that it's sad to lose sight of the fact at the core of this event--that an innocent boy on the verge of adulthood lost his life unnecessarily. I think we do all agree on that when we are brought back to it, when we are asked to remember it.

I've seen people, and I don't mean specifically SF (though somewhat in this thread), express glib sentiments about the trial that I find troubling. A sense of glee at the verdict that seems incongruous with the fundamental nature of the event--even if you believe he was not guilty (as I do, by the law), it seems wrong to be excited or gleeful about anything in this case. Satisfied that the legal system worked as it was supposed to? Sure. Relieved that a media narrative didn't overtake due process? I'm fine with that. But sometimes it can veer into an ugly territory that makes me uncomfortable.

And I guess I'm just rubbed the wrong way by people who can't understand why people were mad about this, why people felt the need for a trial, why people are outraged. Even if you aren't, you should be able to respect the position, because it is not an unreasonable one.
post #4884 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post

Also, Trayvon died more than a year ago. The time to mourn him was then. He didn't get re-killed on Saturday. The "mourning" is over not being able to put a man in prison, and that's what bothers me. It's not sadness, it's unfulfilled aggression.

I think the sadness is that the law as written and applied did not allow for the punishment of what many see as a clear moral wrong. I think that is a fair thing to be sad or angry about. I think that is something that many people get angry about, when the law is applied fairly and yet what seems to be a clear wrong goes unpunished.
post #4885 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

If only ZImmerman was white...

And there is a distinct difference between "outrage" and what is going on here. The level of personal investment in patently non-factual narratives is appalling.

Actual facts don't matter. This is critical race theory writ large, where the only thing matters is the "narrative." It does not matter if the narrative is false in this paradigm.
Quote:
What is most arresting about critical race theory is that...it turns its back on the Western tradition of rational inquiry, forswearing analysis for narrative. Rather than marshal logical arguments and empirical data, critical race theorists tell stories — fictional, science-fictional, quasi-fictional, autobiographical, anecdotal—designed to expose the pervasive and debilitating racism of America today. By repudiating reasoned argumentation, the storytellers reinforce stereotypes about the intellectual capacities of nonwhites.

Judge Richard Posner
post #4886 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

And there is a distinct difference between "outrage" and what is going on here. The level of personal investment in patently non-factual narratives is appalling.

Can you explain this? It's very vague.
post #4887 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by harvey_birdman View Post

Actual facts don't matter. This is critical race theory writ large, where the only thing matters is the "narrative." It does not matter if the narrative is false in this paradigm.
Judge Richard Posner

And what actual facts are you suggesting don't matter, Harvey?
post #4888 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal View Post

Due process was actually subverted by the "social justice" crowd, so much so that it might have even cost them a conviction. If a lessor but better supported charge had been brought (like some sort of involuntary manslaughter or reckless endangerment) Z could conceivably have been found guilty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal View Post

Yeah, that was totally not the argument I was making.

So what kind of argument were you making--what is the reckless conduct?
post #4889 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by NameBack View Post


And I guess I'm just rubbed the wrong way by people who can't understand why people were mad about this, why people felt the need for a trial, why people are outraged. Even if you aren't, you should be able to respect the position, because it is not an unreasonable one.

If this encompassed the totality of the sentiments expressed by the majority of the "outraged" people I might agree it is not an unreasonable thing. However, this does not really describe the totality of the things being expressed. Millions, and I do mean millions, seem convinced Zimmerman is a proven racist, a proven murderer, and that either racism or a vast conspiracy are the only possible reasons he is not in jail. If the MSM and FB were not covered in this I would buy that all people wanted was a trial and that's "reasonable." However it's very clear the millions of people expect more and are holding non-factual positions as gospel truth.
post #4890 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by NameBack View Post

I think the sadness is that the law as written and applied did not allow for the punishment of what many see as a clear moral wrong. I think that is a fair thing to be sad or angry about. I think that is something that many people get angry about, when the law is applied fairly and yet what seems to be a clear wrong goes unpunished.

Ok well now we're actually getting somewhere. What are the laws you would like to see, specifically? I see a lot of vague "repeal stand your ground" arguments, but they never seem to be fleshed out. I don't see how a duty to retreat would allow us to criminalize Zimmerman's behavior. Any ideas?
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