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killing Trayvon - Page 294

post #4396 of 6250
To me the troubling thing about this whole case isn't race or the outcome of the trial. I think Trayvon's whole appearance may have contributed to Zimmerman's perception that he was up to no good but I don't think that is necessarily a racism thing. I don't want to say Zimmerman was intent on killing someone, but he did everything right to put himself in a position to do so legally. He got himself armed and trained, learned the law, became a vigilante, and followed a teenager around until a confrontation ensued. This is easily a repeatable process that can result in the same outcome over and over.
post #4397 of 6250
This is close to the perfect intersection of white guilt and 99%erism. If only she had fibromyalgia.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
I am not Trayvon Martin. I am a white woman with not one but two graduate degrees, a solid middle-class income, and relatively no fear of being shot on my way home from buying ice tea at a convenience store or anywhere else. Even though I’m a woman and make only 77 cents compared to my white male colleagues, and even though I grew up working class and owe $80,000 in student loans, I will never know the struggles of Black Americans. I have inconceivable privilege, and I hope to use my privilege to reform laws like the ones that let Trayvon’s killer go free. I went to policy school not in hopes of a colorblind, “post-racial" America, but in hopes of building a more just America where white folks- from political leaders to everyday people, recognize their privileges, questions assumptions, and challenge the status quo.
post #4398 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by cross22 View Post

To me the troubling thing about this whole case isn't race or the outcome of the trial. I think Trayvon's whole appearance may have contributed to Zimmerman's perception that he was up to no good but I don't think that is necessarily a racism thing. I don't want to say Zimmerman was intent on killing someone, but he did everything right to put himself in a position to do so legally. He got himself armed and trained, learned the law, became a vigilante, and followed a teenager around until a confrontation ensued. This is easily a repeatable process that can result in the same outcome over and over.

This is all fantasy.

If he was going to do this, why call the police? They could have showed up early and stopped all of his fun. What if the kid hadn't complied by beating him up? Seems like a plan with a lot of moving parts, and hard to get right on the first try.

EDIT: Oh wait, I see you don't want to say he did that. You just want to insinuate it.
post #4399 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by cross22 View Post

To me the troubling thing about this whole case isn't race or the outcome of the trial. I think Trayvon's whole appearance may have contributed to Zimmerman's perception that he was up to no good but I don't think that is necessarily a racism thing. I don't want to say Zimmerman was intent on killing someone, but he did everything right to put himself in a position to do so legally. He got himself armed and trained, learned the law, became a vigilante, and followed a teenager around until a confrontation ensued. This is easily a repeatable process that can result in the same outcome over and over.

I completely agreed with you until the last sentence. Do you really think anyone with even a resemblance of sanity wants the life of George Zimmerman?
post #4400 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by harvey_birdman View Post

This is close to the perfect intersection of white guilt and 99%erism. If only she had fibromyalgia.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

I think someone should let her know she does not have thin privilege. I think it would make her happy to know she's actually discriminated against.
post #4401 of 6250
If someone has a hard on to commit murder and get away with it, they can pick a random stranger in a city far from home, follow them until they are alone and kill them without witnesses. The reason that this doesn't happen all the time is that the world isn't full of people looking to kill random people.
post #4402 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by cross22 View Post

To me the troubling thing about this whole case isn't race or the outcome of the trial. I think Trayvon's whole appearance may have contributed to Zimmerman's perception that he was up to no good but I don't think that is necessarily a racism thing. I don't want to say Zimmerman was intent on killing someone, but he did everything right to put himself in a position to do so legally. He got himself armed and trained, learned the law, became a vigilante, and followed a teenager around until a confrontation ensued. This is easily a repeatable process that can result in the same outcome over and over.

People have to stop using words incorrectly in reference to this case. Zimmerman was in no way a "vigilante." Just like he didn't "stalk" Trayvon. And he didn't "disobey" a police officer to stay put. These words have meaning and by using them incorrectly you're inflating your case and exaggerating Z's actions to cartoon like proportions.

Vigilante -
Quote:
: a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the processes of law are viewed as inadequate); broadly : a self-appointed doer of justice

Z was not out to "suppress and punish crime summarily", as evidenced by the fact he called the fucking police to come get Trayvon. He was a member of a neighbourhood watch, not fucking Dirty Harry.
post #4403 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post

If someone has a hard on to commit murder and get away with it, they can pick a random stranger in a city far from home, follow them until they are alone and kill them without witnesses. The reason that this doesn't happen all the time is that the world isn't full of people looking to kill random people.

Please do not think I believe Zimmerman was out to commit murder as I think that's ludicrous. He did, however, create the perfect storm to place himself in a situation where he felt he needed to shoot someone. That's at the very least pretty stupid.
post #4404 of 6250
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/15/6-decisions-trayvon_n_3600690.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

The 6 Decisions That Could Have Saved Trayvon Martin's Life
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
1. Zimmerman could have decided not to follow Martin.
For starters, George Zimmerman is not a law enforcement official trained in spotting suspicious or criminal behavior. Zimmerman told a 911 operator that Martin seemed suspicious and appeared to be "on drugs or something. It's raining and he’s just walking around, looking about." It was not 3 a.m. when Zimmerman spotted Martin. Rather, it was early evening, a time when people typically "walk around, looking about." Had Zimmerman simply gone about his business, we never would have heard about either of them.


2. Zimmerman could have listened to the 911 operator and not followed Martin.
Talking to an operator, Zimmerman complained, "These assholes, they always get away." He later narrated, "Shit, he's running.”

"Are you following him?" the operator asked.

Zimmerman confirmed he was. "Ok, we don't need you to do that," the operator told him. If Zimmerman had simply let Martin run away, he'd be alive today. Martin, it later emerged, found Zimmerman as deeply suspicious as Zimmerman found him. Only one of those judgments turned out to be correct.


3. If Zimmerman had not been secretly armed, he probably wouldn't have followed Martin.
Zimmerman knew that he had an advantage in any possible confrontation with a neighbor: He was concealing a weapon. If a fight started, and Zimmerman began losing, he could pull out the gun and shoot his opponent. The state of Florida allows Zimmerman to patrol his neighborhood armed, which emboldened him.


4. If Zimmerman's weapon had not been hidden, Martin probably would have dealt with him differently.
When a man follows another, tensions rise. One way or another, those tensions led to a physical confrontation. But if Florida law barred concealed carry, Martin would have been able to see that Zimmerman was armed. Zimmerman defenders suspect Martin threw the first punch. But even if that's true, would he have done so if he knew Zimmerman was carrying a loaded weapon?


5. Zimmerman could have been barred from carrying a weapon.
Zimmerman had a long history of violence, including a restraining order for domestic violence, felony charges of resisting arrest, and assaulting an officer (the charge was pled down to a misdemeanor and then closed; Zimmerman's dad was a magistrate at the time). He was bounced from a job as a bouncer for being too aggressive with patrons, the New York Daily News reported. And a family member accused him of a pattern of sexual molestation. He wasn't convicted of any felony charges, which could have barred him from a gun license, but in some societies, people would determine that such a history makes someone less than an ideal candidate for the right to carry around a hidden loaded weapon.


6. Zimmerman could have not shot and killed Martin.
Regardless of who threw the first punch, a series of aggressive decisions by Zimmerman led toward the fight that broke out. Zimmerman therefore bears some responsibility for the altercation. If one starts a fight and loses, the result is generally a bloody nose, a fat lip, a black eye, a concussion or even a broken bone. That's the price one pays for getting into a fight, and it tends to be a deterrent to starting a fight. Zimmerman could have chosen to take his lumps and rethink the decisions he had made that landed him where he was. Instead, he pulled out his gun, squeezed the trigger and killed Trayvon Martin.


Of course, there's a seventh decision that could have been made that night -- Trayvon Martin could have chosen to not defend himself.

It takes what could almost be described as clinical insanity to think that nothing Martin did contributed to the outcome.
post #4405 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post

If someone has a hard on to commit murder and get away with it, they can pick a random stranger in a city far from home, follow them until they are alone and kill them without witnesses. The reason that this doesn't happen all the time is that the world isn't full of people looking to kill random people.

This guy appears to be doing exactly that -

http://bossip.com/274323/serial-slasher-hunts-black-men-in-michigan-kills-5-slashes-13-73373/
Quote:
Police officers in Flint, Michigan continued their search today for a man they believe is targeting and stabbing African American men.

The attacker, who witnesses have described as 6 feet tall and Caucasian, has stabbed at least 13 people (all black men), killing five of them.

- See more at: http://bossip.com/274323/serial-slasher-hunts-black-men-in-michigan-kills-5-slashes-13-73373/#sthash.BJPXBWtH.dpuf

He's not bothering with "SYG" laws or any of that nonsense, he's just going out and killing them because he's a fucking loon.
post #4406 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by harvey_birdman View Post

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree, I just don't see cowardice as a virtue.
I don't believe that's accurate. Certainly not in the majority of states with laws similar to FLA's SYG. If the threat of death or serious bodily injury is removed you are no longer justified in using deadly force. So shooting someone in the back as they're running away would be really hard to justify that you were still in fear of death or serious bodily injury. I suppose it's not impossible (you could have just been assaulted and the guy says he's going over to his car to get his gun and shoot you) but I can't see that applying very often.

Cowardice is but one of many reasons for retreating in the face of possible impending violence.
post #4407 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Please do not think I believe Zimmerman was out to commit murder as I think that's ludicrous. He did, however, create the perfect storm to place himself in a situation where he felt he needed to shoot someone. That's at the very least pretty stupid.

It was obviously a miscalculation, based on the result. Maybe it was stupid.

But here's the thing: to say that Zimmerman should have known this would be the result is to say that he should have expected Trayvon to be violent. And if there is a violent person walking around the neighborhood, then he is entirely reasonable to want to keep tabs on him. And if he's harmless, then he might have no reason to follow him but he can't be reasonably expected to see this outcome.

Think of it this way: if he hadn't pulled his piece and he died or suffered brain damage, would you be holding him accountable?
post #4408 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by harvey_birdman View Post

This guy appears to be doing exactly that -

http://bossip.com/274323/serial-slasher-hunts-black-men-in-michigan-kills-5-slashes-13-73373/
He's not bothering with "SYG" laws or any of that nonsense, he's just going out and killing them because he's a fucking loon.

And look at his results. 13 killings in the time that Zimmerman's been waiting for trial. Keep it simple, stupid.
post #4409 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post

It was obviously a miscalculation, based on the result. Maybe it was stupid.

But here's the thing: to say that Zimmerman should have known this would be the result is to say that he should have expected Trayvon to be violent. And if there is a violent person walking around the neighborhood, then he is entirely reasonable to want to keep tabs on him. And if he's harmless, then he might have no reason to follow him but he can't be reasonably expected to see this outcome.

Think of it this way: if he hadn't pulled his piece and he died or suffered brain damage, would you be holding him accountable?

See, I look at it in the opposite fashion. Since I'm packing I want to remove myself from the area of the violent person, as if he becomes violent towards me, I'll probably end up shooting him. That will completely ruin my day.
post #4410 of 6250
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/16/us-usa-florida-shooting-omara-idUSBRE96F04R20130716

So it seems the prosecution gave the defense the raw data but not the report from their IT guy showing what the data was. Is this a Brady violation? Does the prosecution have to release reports they generate like that?
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