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killing Trayvon - Page 201

post #3001 of 6250
Don't abstract this out. You're staying with friends in a gated community. You're young, you've got tattoos, you're wearing a hoodie, and you're loitering around talking on a phone no one else can see. An officious-looking resident watches you suspiciously from his car. He takes out a phone and calls someone as you walk by. What do you do?

You run away. Because you feel threatened...? Maybe.

Only after Martin runs away does Zimmerman follow him. Martin is younger, probably much faster, and has a head start. He loses Zimmerman easily as Zimmerman says on the 911 recording. Zimmerman stops, or at the very minimum slows down, and either starts walking back to his car or maybe even starts looking around for Martin. So what?

Martin could have just gone home. But instead several minutes later he turns around, comes back, and fights Zimmerman... because he felt threatened?

That makes no sense.
post #3002 of 6250
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Don't abstract this out. You're staying with friends in a gated community. You're young, you've got tattoos, you're wearing a hoodie, and you're loitering around talking on a phone no one else can see. An officious-looking resident watches you suspiciously from his car. He takes out a phone and calls someone as you walk by. What do you do?

You run away. Because you feel threatened...? Maybe.

Only after Martin runs away does Zimmerman follow him. Martin is younger, probably much faster, and has a head start. He loses Zimmerman easily as Zimmerman says on the 911 recording. Zimmerman stops, or at the very minimum slows down, and either starts walking back to his car or maybe even starts looking around for Martin. So what?

Martin could have just gone home. But instead several minutes later he turns around, comes back, and fights Zimmerman... because he felt threatened?

That makes no sense.

look, I am guessing that we are all smarter than Martin was. and we are all, mostly, from different circumstances. its hard to say what was going through his head.

look at it another, perfectly possible, way - your a kid, staying with your father. surrounded by people who are different from the people you are used to. as you walk home at night, a car starts following you. you cut through a yard, to avoid the following car. the driver, a middle aged man with a shaved head, gets out of his car and follows you.

now, is that the way martin saw it? who the fuck knows. but it isn't clear cut either way.

when I was in my late teens and early twenties, I know that I looked intimidating, and I was stopped several times by security and police just because. it didn't bother me, because I knew that in 15 seconds of conversation the interview would be over, and because I probably have 60-70 IQ points on martin. but who knows what he was thinking.
post #3003 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotter View Post

I probably have 60-70 IQ points on martin. but who knows what he was thinking.

Interesting, if Martin was testing at about 90 ( just a guess ), that would make you pretty smart Z smile.gif
post #3004 of 6250
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnoldh View Post

Interesting, if Martin was testing at about 90 ( just a guess ), that would make you pretty smart Z smile.gif

well, I'm throwing out a number, but the boy was, by all accounts, an idiot.
post #3005 of 6250
For what it's worth, Zimmerman's story is that he saw Martin while he was driving and pulled over to call the cops and report a suspicious person. In the 911 call he says Martin looked "right at him" and approached the car. In the after-the-shooting interview Zimmerman says Martin actually circled his car before he ran away. That's not consistent with him being afraid.

I still suppose it's possible Martin was afraid Zimmerman would hurt him, but it sure looks to be more likely he was afraid Zimmerman was going to call the cops, and he decided to turn around and beat Zimmerman up once he decided they weren't coming.
post #3006 of 6250
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

For what it's worth, Zimmerman's story is that he saw Martin while he was driving and pulled over to call the cops and report a suspicious person. In the 911 call he says Martin looked "right at him" and approached the car. In the after-the-shooting interview Zimmerman says Martin actually circled his car before he ran away. That's not consistent with him being afraid.

I still suppose it's possible Martin was afraid Zimmerman would hurt him, but it sure looks to be more likely he was afraid Zimmerman was going to call the cops, and he decided to turn around and beat Zimmerman up once he decided they weren't coming.
hey - I'm the first to admit a mistake. If Z said on the 911 call that, while he was in his car martin "looked right at him" and approached, I'll admit defeat. although that does raise the question, why did Z get out of the car at that point?
post #3007 of 6250
http://www.motherjones.com/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman
Quote:
Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. ...

Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.

Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?

Zimmerman: He looks black.

Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?

Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring...

Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area...

Zimmerman: ...looking at all the houses.

Dispatcher: OK...

Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.

Dispatcher: OK--you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?

Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse...

Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the--he's near the clubhouse right now?

Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

Dispatcher: OK. Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.

Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?

Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens.

Dispatcher: Late teens ok.

Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.

Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything ok

Zimmerman: How long until you get an officer over here?

Dispatcher: Yeah we've got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else.

Zimmerman: Okay. These assholes they always get away. When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse.

Dispatcher: So it's on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?

Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left...uh you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. Shit he's running.

Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.

Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?

Zimmerman: The back entrance...fucking [unintelligible]

Dispatcher: Are you following him?

Zimmerman: Yeah

Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.

Zimmerman: Ok

Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name?

Zimmerman: George...He ran.

Dispatcher: Alright George what's your last name?

Zimmerman: Zimmerman

Dispatcher: And George what's the phone number you're calling from?

....

It's not that long--you should read the whole thing. I think the phone call lasts about four and a half minutes or so. The important thing to keep in mind is that Martin started out only about 200 yards from his house. How far can you walk in four and a half minutes?
post #3008 of 6250
Thread Starter 
look, this has always been a tough one, and, again, I think that Z was trying to do the right thing and Martin is probably a bad guy. that said - Martin looks at the car, comes closer (with his hand in his waistband) and then runs away, with Z following him. that does leave it pretty open to interpretation - and one of those interpretations is that he looked closely, felt threatened and ran. another would be that he thought that Z had called the police and, being up to no good, decided to run. hard to say. if the call had said "he's coming towards my car with his hand in his waistband" and the shot was fired right after that, it would be more clear to me.

anyway, one guy is dead, and the other guy is pretty fucked up. lets see what happens.
post #3009 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnoldh View Post

The big If

If Martin shot hoops like Leron he would have been King Trayvon

And if my mother were Queen Elizabeth, I would be Prince rnoldh

I thought lawyers and courts hopefully deal with facts, and evidence. Not suppositions.

As I said, my take is that Z is probably not guilty per the letter of the law but guilty per the spirit of the law. SYG has been a problem in the real world.

This has fuck all to do with Stand Your Ground.
post #3010 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by hossoso View Post

You're just absolutely fucking awful.

What's inaccurate about his statement?
post #3011 of 6250

If you ever start a fight, and realize you cant win, please don't pull out your gun and kill the guy! Take your ass-whipping like a man! At least both parties can live for a rematch another dayicon_gu_b_slayer[1].gif

post #3012 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant702 View Post

If you ever start a fight, and realize you cant win, please don't pull out your gun and kill the guy! Take your ass-whipping like a man! At least both parties can live for a rematch another dayicon_gu_b_slayer%5B1%5D.gif

It does not appear that Zimmerman started the fight. So what should one do when one is attacked by another and put in fear of severe bodily injury?
post #3013 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant702 View Post

If you ever start a fight, and realize you cant win, please don't pull out your gun and kill the guy! Take your ass-whipping like a man! At least both parties can live for a rematch another dayicon_gu_b_slayer%5B1%5D.gif

While I do not disagree with your recommendation (I would actually go one further and say that if you're armed you should avoid starting a fist fight all together) but what does it have to do with the Zimmerman/Martin case?
post #3014 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by hossoso View Post

People can't start taking lives every time they think they're being threatened.

There's a difference between thinking you're being threatened, and being assaulted.

Zimmerman was assaulted. He defended himself. Martin deserved what he got.
post #3015 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai View Post

There's a difference between thinking you're being threatened, and being assaulted.

Zimmerman was assaulted. He defended himself. Martin deserved what he got.

I think it's pretty harsh to say he "deserved what he got." If Martin was assaulting Zimmerman (and I think it's a reasonable conclusion to make based on the known facts), then Martin should have had an expectation that one possible consequence of his assault was to be met with deadly force. However, it's the rare instance where someone "deserved" death for assaulting another person. Expect? Sure. Deserved? Not really.

Moreover, it's even harsher to say he "deserved" death when we don't know why he was assaulting Zimmerman. We can speculate based on the facts that are generally known. However, that's all speculation. What type of assaults are deserving of death in response? Did the reason for Martin's assault deserve death? I think there are a lot of people who think Martin did assault him, but that his assault was a complete misunderstanding. That may make Zimmerman's actions defensible, but tragic for both parties. And not deserving of death for Martin, nor deserving of the consequences (judicial and extra-judicial) that Zimmerman has and will face.
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