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post #2986 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDC2823 View Post

I'll wait for trial to hopefully get all the evidence. But, if it becomes true that he was attacked, his head injuries were real, and it was apparent Zimmerman was defending himself...then I'm completely cool with him putting a bullet through Martin, even if he was unarmed.

...

If that's not the case and Zimmerman pursued him with Martin not being a threat, well then Zimmerman should get punished to the full extent of the law.

Zimmerman had every right to "pursue" Martin and confront him about what he was doing. What kind of a world do you live in where adults aren't allowed to question loitering teenagers?

And Martin was only about 200 yards away from the place he was staying when Zimmerman first saw him and something like 100 yards away when he started running. Martin could have covered that distance in 15 seconds, easily; yet, it was several minutes before the fight started. And Zimmerman ended up with a broken nose, two black eyes, and the gashes on the back of his head--while Martin didn't have a mark on him (except his knuckles). This idea that Zimmerman ran Martin down has been pretty soundly debunked.
post #2987 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Zimmerman had every right to "pursue" Martin and confront him about what he was doing. What kind of a world do you live in where adults aren't allowed to question loitering teenagers?

And Martin was only about 200 yards away from the place he was staying when Zimmerman first saw him and something like 100 yards away when he started running. Martin could have covered that distance in 15 seconds, easily; yet, it was several minutes before the fight started. And Zimmerman ended up with a broken nose, two black eyes, and the gashes on the back of his head--while Martin didn't have a mark on him (except his knuckles). This idea that Zimmerman ran Martin down has been pretty soundly debunked.

Since we're making baseless suppositions, maybe Martin was concerned that Zimmerman was a pedophile. IF ONLY MARTIN HAD A GUN!!!!!
post #2988 of 6250
There are timestamped recordings of the 911 calls and maps a plenty showing the distances involved. You can see a timeline here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin
Quote:
7:09:34 - 7:13:41 — George Zimmerman calls the Sanford Police Department (SPD) from his truck; total time of the call is 4 minutes 7 seconds.[12]

7:11:33 — Zimmerman tells the police dispatcher that Trayvon Martin is running.

7:11:59 — In reply to the dispatcher's question, "Are you following him?" Zimmerman says, "Yes." Dispatcher states, "OK, we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman replies, "OK."

7:12:00 - 7:12:59 — The girl calls Martin again at some point during this minute.[13]

7:13:10 — Zimmerman says he does not know where Martin is.

7:13:41 — Zimmerman's call to Sanford police ends.[13]

7:16:00 - 7:16:59 — Martin's call from the girl goes dead during this minute.[13][14]

7:16:11 — First 911 call from witness about a fight, calls for help heard.[15]

7:16:55 — Gunshot heard on 911 call.



Calling my post "baseless suppositions" when you have nothing in response just demonstrates that you don't care about the truth.
post #2989 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

There are timestamped recordings of the 911 calls and maps a plenty showing the distances involved. You can see a timeline here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin


Calling my post "baseless suppositions" when you have nothing in response just demonstrates that you don't care about the truth.

That doesn't do much to support your 'black people are guilty' talking point. Does it?
post #2990 of 6250
So, yeah, you got nothing. There's a surprise.
post #2991 of 6250
Forgot to post the link: http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2012/04/411.html
Quote:
A key moment in George Zimmerman's cellphone call to the Police Department in Sanford, Fla., on the fateful night of Feb. 26 occurs at 7:11:41 p.m., a little more than two minutes into a call that lasts about four minutes.

"He's running," says Zimmerman, referring to the "real suspicious guy" he'd called in to report. Almost immediately you hear on the recording a car door opening and what sounds like a warning beep indicating the key is still in the ignition. Shortly thereafter comes the unmistakable sound of wind blowing into a phone mouthpiece.

Zimmerman is in pursuit! And we all know the outcome: Zimmerman, 28, ultimately shot and killed the unarmed Martin, 17, touching off a national controversy about race, justice and firearms.

But what's often overlooked in all the heated conversations about this tragedy is the actual timeline based on police documents, a timeline that culminated at 7:16:56 p.m., more than five minutes later, with the sound of a single gunshot in the background of a 911 emergency call.

There's much we still don't know about what happened in those five minutes, but we do know it was five minutes — some 90 seconds longer than in many earlier news accounts that misstated the starting time of Zimmerman's call.

And we do know that maps of the area show that Martin was only about 180 yards from home when Zimmerman told police he saw him running in that direction.

"Are you following him?" asks the police dispatcher at 7:11:56 p.m., evidently picking up on the wind noise and Zimmerman's slightly labored breathing. "We don't need you to do that."

"OK," says Zimmerman at 7:12:02 p.m.

Online, the audio of this call has become to the killing of Trayvon Martin what the Zapruder film was to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy — a fragmentary record subjected to endless close analysis by those looking for clues or support for their theories.

Does Zimmerman break off the chase?
By 7:12:15 p.m., the wind noises have stopped and his breathing has returned to normal as he discusses with the police dispatcher where responding officers should meet him. At 7:13:12 p.m. he interjects, "I don't know where this kid is."

Where is Martin? At just a normal walking pace of three miles per hour, he would be home by the time Zimmerman hangs up with police at 7:13:41 p.m.

He isn't. In fact, the fatal altercation between Zimmerman and Martin takes place only about 80 yards from Zimmerman's vehicle — 100 yards from the home where Martin was staying. And the first 911 emergency calls from neighbors reporting their fight don't come in until 7:16:11 p.m., 21/2 minutes after Zimmerman hung up.

So what? Well, it's very difficult to reconcile all this with the popular, outraged contention, as voiced by Rep. Frederica Wilson D-Fla., that Martin "was hunted down like a dog," stalked and overtaken by an officious, gun-toting racist.

Not that some don't try. After I posted a version of the above timeline to my Tribune blog earlier this week, those who favor the simple narrative of the brute killing the hapless child suggested the reason Martin made so little progress toward the safety of home was that Zimmerman terrified him and — even though his girlfriend said he told her in a cellphone call that he was walking quickly — he hid or got lost.

They did not find nearly as likely as I do that Martin, furious at being followed, came back several minutes after hurrying away to confront Zimmerman.

Even if he did pick that fight, of course, that didn't necessarily give Zimmerman the right to shoot him. And it's no call for this idiot Quran-burning preacher Terry Jones (right) to whip up more resentments with a "Justice for Zimmerman vs. Racist Lynch Mob" rally scheduled for Saturday in Sanford.

The yawning gaps in the timeline strongly suggest that this is not a simple story of predator and prey, or of a noble neighborhood hero demonized and facing second-degree murder charges simply for doing the right thing.

It's a reminder that there's a lot we still don't know about the five minutes between "he's running" and the horrible sound of gunfire. … It indicates that the victim as well as the accused made some terrible choices that night.

And it tells us to keep our minds open and our tempers in check, at least until some of those gaps get filled at Zimmerman's trial.
post #2992 of 6250
Thread Starter 
I think that this was a real tragedy, in that Z did something stupid but he was trying to do the right thing.


but here's a question - if a white middle aged guy was walking from the mini market to his fathers home, and an suv with a young black guy was following him, and then the young black guy started running and chasing him, do you feel that the white guy would be in his rights to stand his ground and start punching the black guy?

I don't think Travon was up to good, and he was probably not a good kid, but I strange man started following him and then started running after him, he fought him. its not totally clear that he was in the wrong.

both of them did what seemed right to them at the time. but if Z had waited for the police, nobody would have been killed. ,
post #2993 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotter View Post

but here's a question - if a white middle aged guy was walking from the mini market to his fathers home, and an suv with a young black guy was following him, and then the young black guy started running and chasing him, do you feel that the white guy would be in his rights to stand his ground and start punching the black guy?

That's not a very honest way to flip things around because you're pretending Martin didn't know why Zimmerman was interested in him. You can say he was being race profiled, age profiled, sex profiled, whatever, but the fact is that Zimmerman thought Martin was up to no good and Martin surely knew it. Zimmerman was the adult and Martin was the juvenile delinquent. You can't take that out of the equation.
Quote:
both of them did what seemed right to them at the time. but if Z had waited for the police, nobody would have been killed. ,

Why didn't Martin call the police himself? Or just keep on walking?

It seems to me you concluded Zimmerman was at fault for this incident when we didn't have all the facts, and now you're clinging to it even as the basis for that theory as fallen away. The incident turned into something abnormal and ugly when Martin turned around to confront Zimmerman, almost certainly with the intent of beating him up. That's not a normal or reasonable or "right" response to what Zimmerman did. If Martin had just kept walking he'd still be alive.
post #2994 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotter View Post

but here's a question - if a white middle aged guy was walking from the mini market to his fathers home, and an suv with a young black guy was following him, and then the young black guy started running and chasing him, do you feel that the white guy would be in his rights to stand his ground and start punching the black guy?

Do you feel this parallels the Zimmerman case or have you subtly changed your scenario from what is alleged to have happened between Zimmerman and Martin?
post #2995 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

If Martin had just kept walking he'd still be alive.

The big If

If Martin shot hoops like Leron he would have been King Trayvon

And if my mother were Queen Elizabeth, I would be Prince rnoldh

I thought lawyers and courts hopefully deal with facts, and evidence. Not suppositions.

As I said, my take is that Z is probably not guilty per the letter of the law but guilty per the spirit of the law. SYG has been a problem in the real world.
post #2996 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnoldh View Post


As I said, my take is that Z is probably not guilty per the letter of the law but guilty per the spirit of the law. SYG has been a problem in the real world.

One of the attorneys here can correct me if I'm wrong but I do not believe this case has anything to do with SYG at this point. To my knowledge Zimmerman has waived the SYG provision and is going strictly on self defense.
post #2997 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnoldh View Post

The big If

If Martin shot hoops like Leron he would have been King Trayvon

And if my mother were Queen Elizabeth, I would be Prince rnoldh

I thought lawyers and courts hopefully deal with facts, and evidence. Not suppositions.

As I said, my take is that Z is probably not guilty per the letter of the law but guilty per the spirit of the law. SYG has been a problem in the real world.

The first thing Zimmerman did was call the cops. He only traveled 80 yards from his car over the course of something like five minutes. He waited until Martin broke his nose, blackened both his eyes, and slammed his head on the pavement before he shot. From that, the conclusion that Zimmerman wouldn't have killed Martin had he not turned around and fought is a "supposition"?

I honestly think you guys don't know what a supposition is. My proposition is an argument based on the known facts, not an assumption. You are the one who isn't citing facts in support of your assertions. Explain why you think Zimmerman is guilty under the "spirit of the law." Tell me what stand your ground has to do with this case.
post #2998 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Zimmerman was the adult and Martin was the juvenile delinquent. You can't take that out of the equation.

You're just absolutely fucking awful.
post #2999 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by hossoso View Post

You're just absolutely fucking awful.

That is also not an argument.
post #3000 of 6250
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

That's not a very honest way to flip things around because you're pretending Martin didn't know why Zimmerman was interested in him. You can say he was being race profiled, age profiled, sex profiled, whatever, but the fact is that Zimmerman thought Martin was up to no good and Martin surely knew it. Zimmerman was the adult and Martin was the juvenile delinquent. You can't take that out of the equation.
Why didn't Martin call the police himself? Or just keep on walking?

I honestly think that T was a delinquent. if he were in my nighborhood at night I would keep an eye on him, and possibly call the cops. I am not sure that T saw himself that way. on the other hand, lets think for a second that T was a kid, and Z was a man - I tell my kids in no uncertain terms never to stop and talk to or get into the car with a stranger.

what we have is a situation where they both had good reason to feel threatened, unfortunately.
Quote:

It seems to me you concluded Zimmerman was at fault for this incident when we didn't have all the facts, and now you're clinging to it even as the basis for that theory as fallen away. The incident turned into something abnormal and ugly when Martin turned around to confront Zimmerman, almost certainly with the intent of beating him up. That's not a normal or reasonable or "right" response to what Zimmerman did. If Martin had just kept walking he'd still be alive.

1. I still think that Z is at fault. when you drive around your neighborhood with a gun looking for trouble, you find trouble. I don't think he's a bad guy, I think that it is marginally admirable that he wanted to help out his neighbors. but I think he exhibited poor judgment, while armed.

2. I think that you are right it isn't a "normal" response. honestly, I would probably do the exact same thing. granted, nobody in the world is going to think I am a burglar, but if I was walking down the street and a strange guy followed me in his car and then got out to follow me on foot, I would probably assume the best reaction would be to hit him first.

3. probably, if T had kept walking, or he had stopped and waited for the police, he would be alive.

4. it seems that the same people who hate to let the TSA check their bags also think it is very reasonable that T should have stopped and let a civilian detain him and wait for the police to search him and possibly take him for some questioning. I agree - T should have waited for the cops and cleared everything up, he would still be alive. and, just like I understand that Z did what he did because he believed it was the right thing, I can see why T didn't want to stop, even if that evening he wasn't looking to do something illegal.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Do you feel this parallels the Zimmerman case or

have you subtly changed your scenario from what is alleged to have happened between Zimmerman and Martin?

ok, so that isn't an exact parallel to the case - but so many of the same people who here are horrified that T jumped on Z and punched him, but have argued in other threads that it would be perfectly fine for a person to open fire in a situation like this. rightly or wrongly, Z threatened T, T attacked Z, and Z shot T. I don't think that the whole thing is clear cut.
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