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killing Trayvon - Page 199

post #2971 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

I don't think I agree with that. In practice self-defense is really only a quasi or nominal affirmative defense in that a defendant only has to raise it and then the burden shifts to the prosecution to disprove it. Certainly that's how it is in my state and IIRC pretty much every other one I'm familiar with. Are you sure Florida treats it as a full fledged affirmative defense?
That's just plain weird. If the burden is on the state to disprove self-defense, beyond a reasonable doubt, like I think it is, then that's a harder burden on defendant -- but it sure as hell seems like a chance you'd want to take. If the judge really is allowed to weigh evidence and determine credibility, then all he has to do is decide Zimmerman's account better than the proof against him, and he'd have to let him off. Considering the only real proof the State has is suspect (the combination of the belated account of the not-credible girlfriend and the mother's not-credible claim that it's Martin, rather than Zimmerman, screaming for help on the tapes). Given that Martin obviously wasn't running away and didn't have a scratch on him other than a bullet hole and bruised knuckles, Z should get off. I feel like maybe we're missing something here.

You're missing the political realities of the case. The judge could not possibly dismiss the charges under SYG and hope to not be heckled/recalled/impeached/whatever they do in FLA. Why show your case to the Prosecution ahead of time when you are confident the judge will disregard your presentation anyway?
Quote:
then all he has to do is decide Zimmerman's account better than the proof against him, and he'd have to let him off.

Also the judge in this case is a female.
post #2972 of 6250
^^^

My thoughts too. It would only set a negative precedent on that defense, even if merely technical in nature.
post #2973 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by hossoso View Post

Judging from your past posts, you apply this selectively. I hope you don't mind if I quote it in any thread relating to Islam.

Not really relating to my statement above; If Zimmerman is found innocent it will be a serious setback for race relations in this country. It has become politicized and socialized whether we like it or not.

The fact that this is even a factor is everything wrong with the US.
post #2974 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post


That's how I feel about you.

I have never seen this type of talk on SF before! Very disappointingmad.gif

post #2975 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant702 View Post

I have never seen this type of talk on SF before! Very disappointing:mad:

I'm so sorry you had to witness that moment of temporary bad temper! We're not usually like that.
post #2976 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by hossoso View Post


I'm so sorry you had to witness that moment of temporary bad temper! We're not usually like that.

Understood! I have been noticing many, many people, not just on SF , but around my city as well, getting very emotional over this case! I myself am Pro-gun, but not cowboy style; there has to be some type of order!

post #2977 of 6250
I really haven't heard much of this case as of late... mostly because I'm so busy. But has anything concerning his finances (the PayPal acct.) and the jailhouse recordings of him talking (sounds like scheming) with his gf come up?
post #2978 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid Nickels View Post

I really haven't heard much of this case as of late... mostly because I'm so busy. But has anything concerning his finances (the PayPal acct.) and the jailhouse recordings of him talking (sounds like scheming) with his gf come up?

Whether in prison or on the street, I anticipate George Zimmerman will fall victim to the same misguided justice he meted out to Trayvon Martin. C'est la vie.
post #2979 of 6250
^ ultimately, regardless of how the trial proceeds, you're probably right.
post #2980 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid Nickels View Post

^ ultimately, regardless of how the trial proceeds, you're probably right.

And deservedly.
post #2981 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by hossoso View Post

Whether in prison or on the street, I anticipate George Zimmerman will fall victim to the same misguided justice he meted out to Trayvon Martin. C'est la vie.

Good term, misguided justice.

Rationally, Z might be not guilty per the letter of the Fl law and often the spirit of the law doesn't matter.

But, say what you will of Trayvon, the poor kid was a teenager and he lost his life.

And that ain't right.
post #2982 of 6250
Responding with lethal force to protect yourself from an imminent threat isn't meting out justice. It's not judging someone or punishing them. It's self-defense.

So I guess you can feel sorry for Martin. But comparing him being killed in self-defense to someone murdering Zimmerman in reprisal is just plain obnoxious.
post #2983 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Responding with lethal force to protect yourself from an imminent threat isn't meting out justice. It's not judging someone or punishing them. It's self-defense.

So I guess you can feel sorry for Martin. But comparing him being killed in self-defense to someone murdering Zimmerman in reprisal is just plain obnoxious.

I guess we'll never get the minutes of the conflagration but, there is no disputing, whatever happened, George Zimmerman shot and killed an unarmed kid. Was Zimmerman really in fear of losing his life? I don't know, maybe he's an alarmist and a total pussy. I just think this is going to catch up to him one way or another.
post #2984 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by hossoso View Post

I guess we'll never get the minutes of the conflagration but, there is no disputing, whatever happened, George Zimmerman shot and killed an unarmed kid. Was Zimmerman really in fear of losing his life? I don't know, maybe he's an alarmist and a total pussy. I just think this is going to catch up to him one way or another.

I'll wait for trial to hopefully get all the evidence. But, if it becomes true that he was attacked, his head injuries were real, and it was apparent Zimmerman was defending himself...then I'm completely cool with him putting a bullet through Martin, even if he was unarmed. If what I stated is true and that's how it happened...and I really haven't been following the case so I don't know much about it at all,,,but if it happened that way, then chalk one up for the good guys. Again, I'll wait for the trial because I haven't followed it and I want to make sure I do know everything that happened. If that's not the case and Zimmerman pursued him with Martin not being a threat, well then Zimmerman should get punished to the full extent of the law.

I do see what I think you're trying to get at. If someone attacks another person and the attacker is not armed, is it justified to use arms to suppress that threat? In my book, absolutely. If you're being physically attacked, it's asinine to have to resort to their tool of choice if you have better means. It's why people say "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight". If they have a knife and are attacking you, and you have a gun, then use your gun and put them six feet under. It's not about being a pussy, it's about self preservation.
post #2985 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDC2823 View Post

I do see what I think you're trying to get at. If someone attacks another person and the attacker is not armed, is it justified to use arms to suppress that threat? In my book, absolutely. If you're being physically attacked, it's asinine to have to resort to their tool of choice if you have better means. It's why people say "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight". If they have a knife and are attacking you, and you have a gun, then use your gun and put them six feet under. It's not about being a pussy, it's about self preservation.

Yeah, I can read your page too, I guess. I just can't flip the kill switch like that. People can't start taking lives every time they think they're being threatened. Bar fights? Disputes at Little League games? Parking lot rights? Mistaking someone for a prowler in your neighborhood? You can't just kill people for that shit. In the heat of the moment you don't evaluate both sides of the story. In the heat of the moment your adrenaline is pumping. You psyche yourself into fight or flight. You don't hesitate to ask yourself if either are necessary because you've got a gun and that means fight. You shoot a kid to death that brought Skittles to the gun fight.
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