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killing Trayvon - Page 170

post #2536 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

Was anyone other than Fraiche suggesting that? I said that you probably shouldn't run up to someone and start screaming at them and then call self-defense, not sure why you called me out about that.

Actually, that is incorrect. I was suggesting that provocation takes away the claim of self-defense.
post #2537 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraiche View Post

Actually, that is incorrect. I was suggesting that provocation takes away the claim of self-defense.

Well, that's a good clarification. I was going off of:
Quote:
Hypothetically, if I walk up to a gang banger at night to engage in a conversation that I knew would put me at risk, how can I claim self defense?
I can't see how engaging in a civil conversation with someone, no matter the time or place, would count as "provocation." It's kind of stupid for you to put yourself at risk, but stupidity doesn't void your right to self-defense. Starting an actual confrontation does (or should).
post #2538 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraiche View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

Was anyone other than Fraiche suggesting that? I said that you probably shouldn't run up to someone and start screaming at them and then call self-defense, not sure why you called me out about that.

Actually, that is incorrect. I was suggesting that provocation takes away the claim of self-defense.

What evidence was presented on provocation? Questioning a teen in a place of prior crimes seems perfectly fine to me? And he pursued Trayvon because when he waited before the cops took too long.
post #2539 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane's View Post

Do you have any idea what vigilantism is? Do you have any real idea of when deadly force is acceptable under the law for a typical citizen out in the street? I'll agree that engaging a situation is the responsible thing to do. The caveat is that it be done by using the in place systems. That's what responsible citizens do. You aren't a cop so don't go out and play one. Why? Because law enforcement is trained for this and they have a hard enough time rightly discerning the law. Who are you? You mentioned something about prudent measures. The real weapon isn't a gun it's the grey matter between your ears. If more people used it instead of one of the tools used for force multiplication everyone would be much better off. If zimmerman used the real weapon (his brain) in a responsible manner then this whole thing would be a non issue because it would have never happened.

re the bolded, yes I do.

But bro, take youre own advice and read what I wrote rather than responding to me as though I'm suggesting vigilantism. I'm not. However, the police are often NOT the proper person to handle interactions between citizens, even potentially contentious ones. And often they can't.

If a kid is bumping his stereo next door, should you ask him to turn it down before calling the cops?
What about a few 18 year old kids loitering? What if they look a little sketchy?
How about an asshole at the park?
Do you really think you should always call the cops?
And if said drunk asshole starts swinging on you when you ask him to stop curing in front of your kids, it's your fault?
post #2540 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal View Post

re the bolded, yes I do.
But bro, take youre own advice and read what I wrote rather than responding to me as though I'm suggesting vigilantism. I'm not. However, the police are often NOT the proper person to handle interactions between citizens, even potentially contentious ones. And often they can't.
If a kid is bumping his stereo next door, should you ask him to turn it down before calling the cops?
What about a few 18 year old kids loitering? What if they look a little sketchy?
How about an asshole at the park?
Do you really think you should always call the cops?
And if said drunk asshole starts swinging on you when you ask him to stop curing in front of your kids, it's your fault?

If a kid is bumping his stereo next door, should you ask him to turn it down before calling the cops?

In most situations I suppose that would be fine.

What about a few 18 year old kids loitering? What if they look a little sketchy?

What about a 17 year old walking down the street who someone said looks suspicious?

How about an asshole at the park?

Define asshole. Are you talking about someone who you think might be involved in some crime? Are you talking about someone who's doing something that you don't like but isn't against any law? One circumstance dictates that it would be prudent to involve LE and to not get personally involved. The other is a matter of rights isn't it? Who are you to impose your views, biases, beliefs or what not on another without invite?

Do you really think you should always call the cops?

Obviously no. But that answer is highly dependent on the individual situation.

And if said drunk asshole starts swinging on you when you ask him to stop curing in front of your kids, it's your fault?

It could be. It all depends on your approach and mindset doesn't it? What if said drunk isn't drunk but torched up on meth? What if that person just committed murder while robbing someone to get that fix? If you knew that would you run or go straighten them out? It is often said that what you don't know is what will get you killed.

In the realm of petty civil matters it's one thing to try to solve disagreements on your own. The second there's suspicion of criminal activity or an actual crime is being committed it is in your best interest not to get involved, both legally and civily. If you want to be a good responsible citizen then be a good witness, step forward and tell the authorities what you saw and heard.
post #2541 of 6250
so at work today i witnessed a new transfer on my campus debating with a campus cop for 45 minutes about how he should be able to carry a gun on campus and how unfair it is that he would be arrested if he carries a pistol into a classroom. god bless usa!!!!
post #2542 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teger View Post

so at work today i witnessed a new transfer on my campus debating with a campus cop for 45 minutes about how he should be able to carry a gun on campus and how unfair it is that he would be arrested if he carries a pistol into a classroom. god bless usa!!!!

Yes, argue with someone who has absolutely no authority to change the rules! That's like getting pulled over for speeding and arguing with the officer that the speed limit should be higher.
post #2543 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post

Yes, argue with someone who has absolutely no authority to change the rules! That's like getting pulled over for speeding and arguing with the officer that the speed limit should be higher.

Very true..

We all do it and we mustn't...
post #2544 of 6250
I havent read the entire thread, so Im not sure if this stuff has already been mentioned. Any interest? Anyone know if this will be admitted?


http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/01/10963191-trayvon-martin-case-911-call-screams-not-george-zimmermans-2-experts-say?lite


Trayvon Martin case 911 call: Screams not George Zimmerman's, 2 experts say
By msnbc.com staff

Updated at 2 p.m. ET: The voice heard crying for help on a 911 call just before Trayvon Martin was shot to death was not that of George Zimmerman, according to two forensic voice identification experts, one of whom told MSNBC on Sunday that he believes the evidence is strong enough to use in court.

Follow @msnbc_us

"The tests concluded that it's not the voice of Mr. Zimmerman," Tom Owen, of Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence, told MSNBC.

Asked if he thought such tests would be admissible in court, Owen said "yes" and noted he had recently used similar testing in testimony at a Connecticut murder case that involved 911 call.


The conclusions of Owen and another audio expert were first reported by the Orlando Sentinel on Saturday.

Zimmerman told police that he screamed for help during his confrontation with Martin, 17. He claims the shooting was self-defense.

The 911 call, reposted in this YouTube clip, came on the night of Feb. 26 from a woman who reported someone crying out for help in a gated community in Sanford, Fla.

In the recording of her phone call, panicked cries and a gunshot are heard.

The Sentinel said it had contacted the two audio experts.

Owen told the newspaper he used software called Easy Voice Biometrics to compare Zimmerman's voice to the 911 call screams.

"I've run it against 300 voices and it was better than 99 percent in all cases," he told MSNBC when asked about its accuracy.

Owen told the newspaper that the software compared the screams to Zimmerman's voice and returned a 48 percent match. He said he would expect a match of higher than 90 percent, considering the quality of the audio.

"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen told the Sentinel.

But he also said he could not confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice.

The Sentinel said that Ed Primeau, a Michigan-based audio engineer and forensics expert, used audio enhancement and human analysis and came to the same conclusion.
post #2545 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal View Post


Bullshit. But ultimately this is a cultural disagreement. I don't feel that taking prudent measures to protect yourself from the .001% of situations that get violent makes you in the wrong, even if you chose to engage. Engaging is a social responsability.
I will say this: 999/1000 times a personal confrontation IS the better option and will have better results than calling the cops. Often a situation is made much, much worse by calling the cops and it is a HUGE and often unnec. esculation of a situation. Society is ultimiately held accountable by its self and the fact that so many people have passed the buck is a huge and self replicating problem.
There will certainly be times when the police are FAR better equipted and trained to handle a situation, but remember what I intially reacted to. Several people seem to think that simply opening your mouth and talking to someone about their behaviour puts you in the wrong.

 

this was not one of the 999/1000

wait 2 minutes for the cops

the kid was doing nothing wrong

post #2546 of 6250
That story is months old. I suppose the prosecutors could hire them to testify, but then they'd have to admit that the FBI said the recording was too poor to actually do a voice comparison.
post #2547 of 6250
More story unfolding:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-zimmerman-witnesses-20120526,0,5699428.story

Four witnesses in Trayvon Martin case change their stories
Three key witnesses in the second-degree murder case against George Zimmerman change their accounts in ways that could damage the defendant. The fourth abandons her initial story altogether.



May 25, 2012, 8:08 p.m.

ORLANDO, Fla. — Evidence released last week in the second-degree murder case against George Zimmerman shows four key witnesses made major changes in what they say they saw and heard on the rainy February night when he fatally shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.

Three changed their stories in ways that could damage Zimmerman. One man who initially told police Martin was atop Zimmerman punching him "MMA-style" — a reference to Mixed Marital Arts — later said he was no longer sure about the punches. The teenager may have simply been keeping Zimmerman pinned to the ground, he said.

A fourth witness abandoned her initial story — that she saw one person chasing another. Now she says she saw a single figure running.

They were re-interviewed in mid-March, after Sanford, Fla., police handed off the case to State Atty. Norm Wolfinger. The case changed hands again when Florida Gov. Rick Scott appointed a special prosecutor.

Zimmerman, 28, was arrested April 11 on a charge of second-degree murder. He has pleaded not guilty, claiming self-defense, and is out on bond awaiting trial.

Martin was staying with his father's fiancee, who lives in the Retreat at Twin Lakes, a gated community. Zimmerman called police to report him as a suspicious person. Then he followed Martin, who was returning from a convenience store with a bag of Skittles and an iced tea. An altercation ensued and Martin was shot in the chest.

The witnesses changed their stories in these key ways:

• Witness 2: A young woman who lives in the gated community was interviewed twice by Sanford police and once by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

She told authorities that she had taken out her contact lenses just before the incident. In her first recorded interview with Sanford police four days after the shooting, she told lead Investigator Chris Serino, "I saw two guys running. Couldn't tell you who was in front, who was behind."

She stepped away from her window, and when she looked again, she "saw a fistfight. Just fists. I don't know who was hitting who."

A week later, she added a detail when talking again to Serino: During the chase, the two figures had been 10 feet apart.

That all changed when she was re-interviewed March 20 by a state agent. That time, she recalled catching a glimpse of just one running figure, she told investigator John Batchelor, and she heard the person more than saw him.

"I couldn't tell you if it was a man, a woman, a kid, black or white. I couldn't tell you because it was dark and because I didn't have my contacts on or glasses.... I just know I saw a person out there."

• Witness 12: A young mother who is also a neighbor in the town-home community never gave a recorded interview to Sanford police, according to prosecution records released last week. She first sat down for an audio-recorded interview with a state agent March 20, more than three weeks after the shooting.

During that session, she said she saw two people on the ground immediately after the shooting and was not sure who was on top.

"I don't know which one.... All I saw when they were on the ground was dark colors," she said.

Six days later, however, she said she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top, she told trial prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda during a 2 1/2-minute recorded session.

"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes; I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," she said.

• Witness 6: This witness lived a few feet from where Martin and Zimmerman fought. On the night of the shooting, he told Serino he saw a black man on top of a lighter-skinned man "just throwing down blows on the guy, MMA-style."

He also said the one calling for help was "the one being beat up," a reference to Zimmerman.
post #2548 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

That story is months old. I suppose the prosecutors could hire them to testify, but then they'd have to admit that the FBI said the recording was too poor to actually do a voice comparison.

Im not finding any data on the FBI analysis. Can you give some sources?
I am under the impression that the FBI does not do this in house and farms it out to the types of forensic audio guys interviewed above.
post #2549 of 6250
It was in the published discovery. You didn't hear about it because the media is scum.
post #2550 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

It was in the published discovery. You didn't hear about it because the media is scum.

I wont disagree with you there.
Is the discovery online somewhere?
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