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killing Trayvon - Page 168

post #2506 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by gdl203 View Post

Wasn't that Philly case another example of just that? Guy felt threatened for his life even though he was not physically assaulted, drew his weapon, the dudes didn't retreat, he shot them and walked out the courthouse free.

Are you referencing the Ung case? If so that's the one I'm talking about.
post #2507 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal View Post

This attitude is why society is going to hell in a hand-basket.

Uh, how so? I don't think people who are carrying guns should be going out of their way to start confrontations, seeing how "somebody getting shot" is worse than pretty much anything else that could happen there. Call the cops if you really need some goon moved in an non-immediate context.
post #2508 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane's View Post

Are you referencing the Ung case? If so that's the one I'm talking about.

Yes, that one. Didn't realize you were talking about the same thing
post #2509 of 6250
Well in that circumstance it was 3 guys on one, which makes it much more cut and dried. Any impending beating that is 3 on 1 should put you in a reasonable fear of death or severe bodily harm.
post #2510 of 6250
We're not going to re-debate this but let's just say that how "reasonable" this fear is depends on one's perception of how "impeding" the beating is, especially in case where no physical violence actually took place. And that's where things start to get really subjective. Add to that the fact that it's the first time the idiot bro sees the CCW holder and he knows nothing about him : he doesn't know if he is sensible or crazy, if he's sober or drunk, if he carries legally etc... so when a gun is drawn and now objectively threatens the life of that bro, it's not hard to believe that his gut reaction would be to figure out a way to avoid being shot (for most, it would probably be to freeze but for idiots, that may include charging the guy to disarm him).

So in this case, you'd have the bro who provokes the fight, the Ung guy who reacts and the bro who thinks he's acting in self-defense...

Now the case was tried so it's all done and justice has spoken but it's quite a stretch to say that it is cut and dry... The one person who escalates from verbal to physical violence and introduces a much more tangible fear of death is also the one claiming self-defense - that's a pretty tough case IMO.
post #2511 of 6250
Picture of Zimmerman's hands taken right after the shooting:

120517113546-zimmerman-hands-horizontal-gallery.jpg
post #2512 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

He didn't do anything illegal--until he jumped Zimmerman. The last part is the rub, isn't it? You know, at this point, we really have two stories.
The first is Zimmerman's--that he watched Martin from his truck, followed Martin a hundred feet or so and turned around. Martin backtracked, approached him, said something like "What's your problem?" then attacked him. Then we have the girl on the phone, who says Martin was worried by Zimmerman following him. So far so good. But they meet up somehow anyway, she doesn't know who approached who or what, but Martin says "Why are you following me?" and presumably Zimmerman attacks Martin. The girl's story is dubious because she waited so long to tell it, and because of the time involved (if her story is believed, Martin must have been walking away from Zimmerman at a pretty leisurely pace since he had three or four minutes and only covered a hundred feet or so if he didn't backtrack) -- but whatever.
Anyway, neither the girl nor Zimmerman describes Martin as attacking Zimmerman in self-defense as you seem to postulate.


For the record: I agree for the most part here and with your other posts in this thread. But in regards to the bolded: something must have happened in the mean time. Back tracking does not equal the start of violence though, just as Zimmerman following Martin does not equal the same.
post #2513 of 6250
It doesn't prove he started the fight, but it sure supports Zimmerman's story and contradicts the account by Martin's girlfriend, who portrays him as retreating.
post #2514 of 6250
That's probably true, depending on her exact account.
post #2515 of 6250
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane's View Post

Globe this is where I end up conflicted. Everyone keeps talking about stand your ground. Stand your ground means exactly that. It does not mean chase someone down and when it all goes wrong you get to play the self defense card and shoot someone. Now if Zimmerman actually did stop his pursuit and Martin decided to flank him and initiate an assault then I have no problem saying he certainly can stand his ground and his self defense shooting was justifiable.
IMO it'll be the interpretation of FLA's SYGL that's going to decide this case.

before I go on and read the rest of the thread - let me say that I am pretty sure that you and I are in very close agreement on this particular instance.

1. Z is a good guy in general, trying to help out his neighborhood
2. following suspicious people and calling the cops is a good thing
3. Z should have stayed in his car, by getting out, he put himself in a postion where he might end up killing somebody who didn't have to die
4. trayvon my very well have had criminal intentions that evening, and he certainly wasn't a "good kid"
5. there is a very good chance that trayvvon atacked Z without a good reason
6. once attacked, if attacked, z had the right to shoot his attacker, no matter what stupid thing they each did to get into that situaiton
7. you might be able to argue that Z "attacke" trayvon - it is possible that a 17 year old running percieved suffitient and credible thread from a large running and screaming man chasing him to warrant turning around and hitting him


the bottom liine is, trayvon didn't have to die, and that was in the control of z, he should have behaved more responsibly,
post #2516 of 6250
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal View Post

Really? Of all people to think this way I'm shocked that you, whom have said on many occasions that you have no problem with "killing bad people," would feel this way.
I would think that their are certain types of people-drug dealing gang bangers being one- that perhaps a little killing might improve. And if you're going to tell them to get the fuck out of your neighborhood and away from your family and kids, then it is only prudent to make sure you've got a gun in your pocket before you do so.
I have exactly one gun in my house. And if I'm ever running crack dealing hoods off my block I will be sure to take it out of it's box, unlock the child safety lock, load it, and put it on my hip or in a pocket before I go run said hoods.
(btw, I would put the chance of this ever actually happening at about 0. I live in a neighborhood where the cops come when they are called and the crack dealers keep it indoors. And if I did not I would move long before I went vigilante).

look, the difference is that I have gotton up in the morning and gone out to kill people. I don't have a problem with that, and I don't regret it. but if I was faced with a situation where there were people dealing crack on my street, I would do ever fucking possible thing to make sure that I didn't have to kill them. and then if I did, I would put my finances in order, and clean my house, and send my family off on vacation, and set myself up and alibi, and go out and kill them. and if I had to go to jail, then so be it. but it would be a calculated risk.

I don't think Trayvon was a girl scout, but I also don't think that he deserved to die. but, he might have been an actual very tall 12 year old black girl scout, for all Z knew. without really thinking about anything, he went out and put himself in a situation where there was a good chance that somebody could get killed.
post #2517 of 6250
He wanted to keep an eye on someone he thought was casing houses. A good chance one of them was going to die if he did that? Give me a break!
post #2518 of 6250
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

He wanted to keep an eye on someone he thought was casing houses. A good chance one of them was going to die if he did that? Give me a break!

everything is different when you have a gun in your pocket, everything. that is the point. a gun is a tool for killing people.
post #2519 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post

Well in that circumstance it was 3 guys on one, which makes it much more cut and dried. Any impending beating that is 3 on 1 should put you in a reasonable fear of death or severe bodily harm.

Of course it does.

Now let's change the scenario just a little bit.

Let's say Z did indeed confront M and after an exchange M walked off. Z continues to follow while talking to the police on the phone. During this conversation Z says a couple of things that would indicate he's profiled M as a bad guy and further shows he's hostile towards M because he's perceived to be a bad guy. The dispatcher urges Z to back off and wait for the police. In this example let's say that Z ignores this and continues his chase. M is now getting more nervous as the distance closes. Now we're back to that 21 foot distance where it's time to take a defensive posture. M turns to confront Z, more words are exchanged, it escalates to a fight and at some point Z brings a gun into play because he bit off more than he could chew and kills M.

Self defense or not? Stand your ground or not?
post #2520 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotter View Post

before I go on and read the rest of the thread - let me say that I am pretty sure that you and I are in very close agreement on this particular instance.

We are. This isn't a typical self defense situation. A lot of time passed from the piont of initial contact to the shooting. Combine that with an ego and bad attitude along with some very poor judgement calls is problematic to say the least.

It seems the prosecution is going to view this as an active pursuit case which null and voids any stand your ground claim and makes a self defense claim extremely difficult to prove. On the otherhand if it's determined that Z broke off the pursuit and it hit the fan then I have no problem saying he has STYG and a solid case of lawful use of lethal force in a SD scenario.
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