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killing Trayvon - Page 162

post #2416 of 6250
There was a case a little like that not too long ago. A white kid was wanting to fight a black kid, so the black kid's father came down, held a gun in his face, and shot him dead for no immediate reason. Said "oops, it just went off." Guess which side the left and the black community took?

He wasn't even prosecuted for murder, was convicted of manslaughter or negligent homicide or something, given a super duper lenient sentence, and then was pardoned before even serving it.
post #2417 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyCooN View Post

zimmerman can't fight and was beat up by a 17 year old kid he wanted to pick a fight with?eh.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Right. Only in America can you "provoke" someone by walking around in your own neighborhood, then kill them when all they did was try to kill you.
Next thing you know women who dress provocatively will think they can shoot men who try to rape them!

Do you guys have reading comprehension problems? I was not commenting on the case but on the SYG SD law in FL. Let me know if what I wrote was incorrect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artisan Fan View Post

Following someone around a neighborhood that has had break-ins is "provoking"?
Whats a matter Greg? Events not adhering closely enough to the template for you?

Oh hi Lee, it's been a while. Nice ad hominem, dickhead smile.gif
post #2418 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post

Zimmerman is 5'9" I think. Martin was 6'2". Not that any of that matters if Martin was on top of him slamming his head into the ground.

 

zimmerman stalked him

the kid tried to run

zimmerman got pissed off (as the phone records indicate)

got out and chased him

the kid fearing for his life fought back, self defense, and got the best of him

zimmerman shot him

 

the law is vague and will be hard to interpret

it says yes, you can fight back and use deadfly force, but not if you instigate it (he did, kid was doing nothing, and was confronted by zimmerman, phone records bear this out)

it does allow deadly force if you start the fight, then try to withdraw/defuse/retreat, and the person you attacked persists and you fear for your life

this will be the crux of the matter

 

I think they went for 2nd degree, which is a real stretch, hoping he'll cave and take voluntary or involuntary manslaughter

he should not have confronted the kid, just observed, the cops showed up 2 minutes after he was shot

 

this could lead to bad prescedent: you confront your wifes new boyfriend, he fights back, you fear for your life (after yelling, stop, stop, I quit, for a few seconds in the heat of a fight,) then you shoot him

post #2419 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur PE View Post

zimmerman stalked him
the kid tried to run
zimmerman got pissed off (as the phone records indicate)
got out and chased him
the kid fearing for his life fought back, self defense, and got the best of him

zimmerman shot him

Evidence? Everything I've seen supports the theory that Martin came back to confront Zimmerman.
post #2420 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur PE View Post

zimmerman stalked him
the kid tried to run
zimmerman got pissed off (as the phone records indicate)
got out and chased him
the kid fearing for his life fought back, self defense, and got the best of him

zimmerman shot him

Evidence? Everything I've seen supports the theory that Martin came back to confront Zimmerman.

What Munchausen said.
post #2421 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post


For the record, I know that nobody wants to go back and read this whole thread, but I have shifted my position on this as the evidence came in. I would say the evidence is overwhelming in support of Zimmerman's self-defense claim. I don't call myself a liberal, but I'm sure I'm considered one on the CE. I have no ideological reason to join Team Zimmerman, other than a belief in the rule of law and presumption of innocence.

I'm the same way. You and the other attorneys have explained that application of the law in Florida should lead to this not even getting to court. I'm still of the mind that Z is in the wrong by an reasonable means but we're talking the law, which is famously, an ass.
post #2422 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post


Evidence? Everything I've seen supports the theory that Martin came back to confront Zimmerman.

 

the evidence I've reviewed indicated zimmerman got out of the car and chased him

they confronted each other, and were arguing that could be heard on the phone

 

zimmerman was coming at him yelling at him to stop or whatever, and martin may turned and closed in on him too, a fight ensued

perhaps zimmerman wouldn't let martin leave until the cops arrived (that is illegal) and martin tried to get away and a fight ensued

 

we know zimmerman chased him contrary to police advice

they aregued before they fought

they fought

martin was shot

 

if zimmerman drove away

stayed in his vehicle

waited for the cops

he was in no danger, was armed, and had no police or arrest authority

 

only 2 people know what happened

one is dead, the other the incentive to lie if he was in the wrong

 

I think zimmerman pulled his gun to detain him, the kid rushed him, gun went off, zimmerman cracked his head, kid fell on him

 

their was no damage to martins knuckles hands, other than a small abrasion near his ring

no scrathces on his face, etc.

post #2423 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

There was a case a little like that not too long ago. A white kid was wanting to fight a black kid, so the black kid's father came down, held a gun in his face, and shot him dead for no immediate reason. Said "oops, it just went off." Guess which side the left and the black community took?
He wasn't even prosecuted for murder, was convicted of manslaughter or negligent homicide or something, given a super duper lenient sentence, and then was pardoned before even serving it.

You're referring to John White; he actually did serve time until his sentence was commuted by the Governor:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704278404576038063871355214.html
Quote:

NY CRIME / December 24 2010
Father Who Killed Is Freed
Paterson Commutes Sentence of Long Island Man Convicted of Slaying Teenager
By JACOB GERSHMAN And TAMER EL-GHOBASHY


Gov. David Paterson on Thursday commuted the sentence of a black Long Island man whose slaying of a white teenager exposed racial fault lines and provoked a debate over the line between self-defense and murder.

With just more than a week left in his governorship, Mr. Paterson freed John White, who was convicted in 2007 of second-degree manslaughter for shooting 17-year-old Daniel "Dano" Cicciaro in front of Mr. White's home in Miller Place in 2006. Mr. White was released after serving about six and a half months in prison.

Accompanied by a group of friends, Mr. Cicciaro arrived at the house in a drunken rage after leaving a party, according to trial testimony. He wanted to confront Mr. White's son, who he thought had threatened to rape a 15-year-old girl, a sister of one of Mr. Cicciaro's friends.

Mr. White raced out of his home with a Beretta pistol to protect his son, Aaron, who had attended the same party. After a struggle, Mr. White shot Mr. Cicciaro in the cheek, leaving a .32-caliber bullet in his brain. Mr. Cicciaro wasn't armed, but his friends had a baseball bat in the back seat of Mr. Cicciaro's Mustang. And one shouted racial epithets while rushing the dying teenager to the hospital, according to a 911 call transcript.

Mr. White insisted his actions were self-defense, and invoked his family's painful experiences with racial prejudice. And his lawyers noted that the source of Mr. Cicciaro's anger, a months-old online posting, turned out to be a hoax. A jury concluded that the shooting was indefensible.

"My decision today may be an affront to some and a joy to others, but my objective is only to seek to ameliorate the profound suffering that occurred as a result of this tragic event," Mr. Paterson said in a statement.

Thomas Spota, the Suffolk County district attorney who prosecuted Mr. White, didn't criticize the governor's decision, but he chided Mr. Paterson for not reaching out to the Cicciaro family beforehand. "I strongly believe the Governor should have had the decency and the compassion to at least contact the victim's family to allow them to be heard before commuting the defendant's sentence," Mr. Spota said in a statement. His office declined further comment.

A spokeswoman for Mr. Paterson said state corrections and parole officials notified the Cicciaro family "in accordance" with protocols. "The governor was aware of the statements made by the family at the time of Mr. White's sentencing," stated the spokeswoman in an email. Mr. Paterson made his decision on Wednesday and didn't speak directly to Mr. White, she said.

Mr. White, a 57-year-old asphalt foreman, was freed shortly after 8 a.m. He spoke briefly Thursday to reporters at his driveway, the site of the shooting. He said he felt blessed and wished them Merry Christmas, according to news reports. His lawyer, Frederick Brewington, said that Mr. White and his family are praying for the Cicciaro family, and that Mr. White plans to return to work after a period of "introspection."

Local NAACP officials had campaigned aggressively on behalf of Mr. White. In October, the state chapter passed a resolution calling for his sentence to be commuted. "It's time for healing," said Hazel Dukes, president of the state chapter. "The district attorney did his job, and the governor did his job. No one is rejoicing; no one is gloating."

Beresford Adams, the pastor of the Faith Baptist church in Coram, Long Island, where Mr. White serves as a deacon, said Mr. White "is very mindful of the pain that the family suffered." The pastor said Mr. White's "faith sustained him and certainly helped him cope with the terrible ordeal."

He said he spoke with Mr. White by phone on Thursday after he was freed. "He just wanted to know when the next church service would be," Mr. Adams said.

A person who answered the phone at an auto-repair shop owned by Daniel Cicciaro's parents in nearby Port Jefferson Station declined to comment. His mother, Joanne Cicciaro, called the killing a murder during the trial and denied her son had racial motives.

In March 2008, Mr. White was sentenced to 1-1/3 to four years, a term that included a concurrent sentence for a weapons charge. He wasn't incarcerated until earlier this year, after an appellate court upheld his conviction. A panel of judges found "ample support" for the jury's conclusion that Mr. White's use of deadly force was not justified.

Mr. White would have been eligible for parole release on Feb. 15, 2012, state officials said.

Since taking office in March 2008, Mr. Paterson has pardoned nine people convicted of crimes that included drug possession, robbery, and attempted murder. All of them were immigrants subject to deportation because of their prior convictions.

In December 2008, Mr. Paterson commuted the sentences of Joanne Carroll, a Staten Island woman sentenced to 15 years in prison in 2001 for first-degree robbery, and Freddie Warren, a Suffolk man and repeat felon sentenced to 20 years to life after a drug conviction. Both had a record of good behavior behind bars and completed educational and training programs, the governor's office said.
post #2424 of 6250

that's bit different than originally posted

if a gang of violent thugs had my son surrounded and looking for blood

I'm calling 911

and I'm going to get him, whatever it takes

that is not a black & white thing, that is a 'your child' thing

this had been brewing for a while

post #2425 of 6250
"After a struggle..."

Here's how the NY appeals court described the testimony about the "struggle."
Quote:
A verbal altercation ensued, with yelling back and forth and the exchange of curses. Although the teenagers denied stepping onto the defendant's driveway, he shouted at them to get off his property, and "leave, leave." The victim demanded that Aaron step away from the property so they could fight. When Aaron began exchanging words with Maloney, the defendant lifted his gun and pointed it at Maloney's head. Seeing the weapon pointed at his friend, the victim screamed at the defendant to "put the gun down," and stepped onto the driveway. After a further exchange of curses, the defendant told the victim that "if you don't get out of here, I'm going to shoot you." The victim countered, "if you're going to shoot me, shoot me." The defendant then pointed the gun at the victim, bringing it just a few inches away from the victim's face. The victim backed up, and slapped the gun away with his right hand. However, the defendant brought the gun back up, and shot the victim in the face.

That, my friends, is a straight up murder. Ironically the same people who condemn Zimmerman defend it. Just shows how hollow the calls from the left for "justice" really are.
post #2426 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

"After a struggle..."
Here's how the NY appeals court described the testimony about the "struggle."
That, my friends, is a straight up murder. Ironically the same people who condemn Zimmerman defend it. Just shows how hollow the calls from the left for "justice" really are.

that is not the court, that is the court recounting the testimony of others

the fact that he only got 1 year tells us what the court really thought

 

he told him he would shoot him if he did not leave his property

the victim authorized him to 'shoot me'

he complied

post #2427 of 6250
You have a keen sense of liberal justice.
post #2428 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

You have a keen sense of liberal justice.

as opposed to consack stupidity?

you slanted the story, then call it murder, when it was not

 

'shoot me' he said to man pointing a gun at his head after threatening the man's son

a real genius, must be a consack

 

the black man is free

the consack moron is dead

justice is served, the world is a better place, one less idiot

post #2429 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur PE View Post

that is not the court, that is the court recounting the testimony of others
the fact that he only got 1 year tells us what the court really thought

he told him he would shoot him if he did not leave his property
the victim authorized him to 'shoot me'
he complied

but if his child was in inside why did he go out? why not call the the cops and wait.
he should have stayed in prison for just being a moron in that instance.
post #2430 of 6250
As the court noted in the opinion, the guy didn't just go outside to confront the kids. He walked 80 feet from his front door to the road where they were.

And for good measure, he brought the son they were wanting to fight down with him.

He did these things because he was afraid and wanted to protect his son, of course.
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