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killing Trayvon - Page 154

post #2296 of 6250
And as far as his permit being expired, that might make some trouble for him but it won't ever make him a murderer. I'm sure there's a hefty fine for that sort of thing.
post #2297 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post

In a criminal court, yes, absolutely. Why wouldn't they be?

Perhaps being put under more scrutiny would be a better choice of words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post

And as far as his permit being expired, that might make some trouble for him but it won't ever make him a murderer. I'm sure there's a hefty fine for that sort of thing.

A fine? More like a third degree felony charge. If this ends up being true and he carried anyway that would make him a felon. Then while doing this he ends up shooting someone and kills them. I don't think claiming self defense or standing your ground means anything anymore.

The more I dig into this the uglier the whole thing is becoming. One 911 call appears to support Zimmerman while another one clearly has Martin yelling for help just before a shot is heard. Then there is the whole cell phone conversation with Martin's gf.
post #2298 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane's View Post

What does the term mean to you J. To me it means it is unnecessary for you to continue "X". It's not a direct command but it certainly is a strong indicator that the local authorities don't want you involved in something. It's also come to my attention that Zimmermans CCW permit may have not been valid at the time of the shooting. I can neither confirm or deny this but it's obvious if that's the case it adds more problems to Zimmermans defense.

"We don't need you to do that" is a very gentle suggestion that someone stop doing something, but it is not a command or anything like it. It is not "telling" someone to stop doing something. (Not sure whether the 911 operator has any ostensible authority to issue a command anyway.) In everyday use, it is most commonly said when someone is doing something beyond what is expected, in a good way ("oh, you don't need to trouble yourself"). If anything, it implies that the operator would like to disclaim liability if the caller continues to do whatever he's doing. He is trying to help, perhaps more than is wise.

 

My point really was that he says "OK" and, from what evidence is present so far, probably stops trying to find T and starts heading back to his car. If this is the case, he has so far done everything right IMO. After that, it is up to who confronted whom and started the fight, and has nothing to do with what color anyone is, or whether he was carrying a gun "legally" or not. CCW proponents may suggest he was dumb for checking out the situation while armed, but what is someone supposed to do? Lock up the gun in case you do happen to end up getting your head bashed into the pavement, where you would need it? Stay in the house all the time and let your neighbors deal with their own problems (such as recent occupied burglary)?

 

Of course if he started a fight with the kid then fry him, whatever. I just don't see how that is going to be proven. And as I said before, it doesn't really matter how this goes down. Luckily the media seem to have laid off it a bit, until the trial...

post #2299 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane's View Post

The more I dig into this the uglier the whole thing is becoming. One 911 call appears to support Zimmerman while another one clearly has Martin yelling for help just before a shot is heard. Then there is the whole cell phone conversation with Martin's gf.

FYI, AFAIK the yelling was claimed by eyewitnesses to be Z yelling for help from underneath T. T's family says it is T yelling. Probably, no one will be able to prove it either way.

post #2300 of 6250
Link to article
Quote:
Physician: Zimmerman had broken nose, black eye
By NBC News and msnbc.com

The day after George Zimmerman fatally shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, a family physician wrote in a report obtained by ABC News that Zimmerman had a broken nose, “a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury.”

The three-page medical report is part of the discovery -- stacks of documents and CDs – currently being examined by the prosecution and the defense, ABC News reported.

Prosecutor files evidence, witness list in Trayvon Martin shooting case
Advertise | AdChoices

The doctor wrote that Zimmerman, 28, made an appointment to make sure he could return to work, ABC News reported. Zimmerman, an insurance underwriter at the time, told the doctor that his lower back hurt; photos show that he also had bruising on his upper lip.

The report also notes that Zimmerman had been prescribed mood medications Adderall and Temezepam before the shooting, ABC News reported. The doctor added that Zimmerman refused to go to the hospital the night of the shooting and added that it was “imperative” that he see his psychologist.

Trayvon Martin timeline: Key events in the Sanford, Fla. shooting case

On the night of the shooting, police officials from Sanford, Fla. said that Zimmerman told them he had used the gun in self-defense.

After more than a month of legal handwringing, during which the case was being intensely scrutinized by the media, Zimmerman was charged with second-degree murder for Martin’s death on Feb. 26. The prosecution contends that Zimmerman tracked the teen, who was returning to the gated community, where his father’s girlfriend lived, after buying snacks at a corner store.

He was charged on April 11; he was released from jail 12 days later on $150,000 bail.

Zimmerman released on bail

Since the shooting, debate has raged over whether Martin attacked Zimmerman before being shot, punching him in the face and hitting his head against the pavement.

Martin’s family, pointing to surveillance video from the police station, note that Zimmerman didn’t have any apparent wounds. Zimmerman’s attorney argued that the footage was of too-low quality to determine whether he had been injured.
post #2301 of 6250

Yeah, he was getting his ass handed to him.

post #2302 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by j View Post

FYI, AFAIK the yelling was claimed by eyewitnesses to be Z yelling for help from underneath T. T's family says it is T yelling. Probably, no one will be able to prove it either way.

It's my understanding that there is one who says that and that they actually saw part of the incident. The parent/s claim it's their child's voice. It's recorded so it shouldn't be too hard to do a voice match to determine if it was Zimmerman or not. Then there's Martin's gf and what she has to say which contradicts what Zimmerman on several points. The other 911 call has no real indication as to whether or not Zimmerman actually stopped following Martin around.

Again the more I dig into this the muddier the waters....
post #2303 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane's View Post

Perhaps being put under more scrutiny would be a better choice of words.
A fine? More like a third degree felony charge. If this ends up being true and he carried anyway that would make him a felon. Then while doing this he ends up shooting someone and kills them. I don't think claiming self defense or standing your ground means anything anymore.
The more I dig into this the uglier the whole thing is becoming. One 911 call appears to support Zimmerman while another one clearly has Martin yelling for help just before a shot is heard. Then there is the whole cell phone conversation with Martin's gf.

Seriously just think about what you are saying here. You are carrying an unlicensed handgun, you get attacked and you defend yourself with it; you are now a murderer? I don't see how you get there. Whether or not he had a CCW is immaterial to the issue of whether he acted in self defense.
post #2304 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by j View Post

"We don't need you to do that" is a very gentle suggestion that someone stop doing something, but it is not a command or anything like it. It is not "telling" someone to stop doing something. (Not sure whether the 911 operator has any ostensible authority to issue a command anyway.) In everyday use, it is most commonly said when someone is doing something beyond what is expected, in a good way ("oh, you don't need to trouble yourself"). If anything, it implies that the operator would like to disclaim liability if the caller continues to do whatever he's doing. He is trying to help, perhaps more than is wise.

My point really was that he says "OK" and, from what evidence is present so far, probably stops trying to find T and starts heading back to his car. If this is the case, he has so far done everything right IMO. After that, it is up to who confronted whom and started the fight, and has nothing to do with what color anyone is, or whether he was carrying a gun "legally" or not. CCW proponents may suggest he was dumb for checking out the situation while armed, but what is someone supposed to do? Lock up the gun in case you do happen to end up getting your head bashed into the pavement, where you would need it? Stay in the house all the time and let your neighbors deal with their own problems (such as recent occupied burglary)?

Of course if he started a fight with the kid then fry him, whatever. I just don't see how that is going to be proven. And as I said before, it doesn't really matter how this goes down. Luckily the media seem to have laid off it a bit, until the trial...

The transcripts I read (admittedly, several weeks old, as I couldn't care less to look this up now) had him responding with something about "these kids are always stealing stuff", not affirming with the operator. That said, I brought this up back around post 50 and the legal consensus was that the phone dispatcher does not have the authority to tell a person what to do, nor hold them accountable if the listener does not follow the orders.
post #2305 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post

The report also notes that Zimmerman had been prescribed mood medications Adderall and Temezepam before the shooting, ABC News reported. The doctor added that Zimmerman refused to go to the hospital the night of the shooting and added that it was “imperative” that he see his psychologist.

Have there been any reports that Z had ADHD?

AFAIK that is the only reason that a 28 year old should be prescribed Adderall.

Adderal is basically the same as pure amphetamine and would have certainly affected Z's mood on the night of the shooting.
post #2306 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by j View Post

Yeah, he was getting his ass handed to him.

You mean he was getting beat up by a little boy?

Trayvon_Martin.jpg
post #2307 of 6250
..
Edited by cross22 - 5/16/12 at 6:24am
post #2308 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post

Seriously just think about what you are saying here. You are carrying an unlicensed handgun, you get attacked and you defend yourself with it; you are now a murderer? I don't see how you get there. Whether or not he had a CCW is immaterial to the issue of whether he acted in self defense.

You don't get to pick out bits and pieces of an incident and just get to throw them away. All it takes is one little detail to either make or break your case. In any event I never said a thing about what it makes him. All I did was point out that I don't know how stand your ground or self defense works if you are in felony possession of a firearm. I do know that if you use it then you have at least an unlawful use of a weapon situation to deal with as well. Self defense with a firearm hinges on the lawful possession of a firearm first and foremost.
post #2309 of 6250
Either he shot someone in self defense or he's a murderer. That's how it works. The legality or illegality of the handgun doesn't have any bearing on his self defense claim. Hope this has been helpful.
post #2310 of 6250
So when does this doctor's report get challenged as bogus?
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