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killing Trayvon - Page 146

post #2176 of 6250

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post

The question is not whether Zimmerman was acting like an idiot, or whether Martin looked like a thug: The question is who attacked whom in a physical way. Insults, screaming, etc. do not justify battery. Even the most heinous crime in our country, hurting someone's feelings, does not justify violence.

So if Martin took the fight to Zimmerman, Zimmerman would be justified in defending himself. Likewise, if Zimmerman attacked Martin, he would not.

 

+1. Though all this is only really useful as a theoretical exercise. To me, the pertinent question is not what happened (since we will never know), but what happens now. A jury will convict or acquit and we all have to live with the consequences in our own neighborhoods. To me the question is, can we do anything to prevent the media from blowing this up into riots or, during an already extremely tense and racially charged election year in this country, some kind of race war. Some of the sensationalist crap I've read about this makes me think they would like nothing better. I just imagine people in offices somewhere looking over the 1968 circulation numbers, salivating over the possibilities.

 

The other bad effect, which has been mentioned, is the chilling effect on people trying to keep their neighbors and friends safe. I personally appreciate that some people are willing to put themselves at a little risk in order to try to keep their neighbors safe from harm. Sometimes those are police, but they can't be everywhere (nor should we want them to be), and they are rarely there when they are needed (such as when two men were burglarizing a nearby residence, occupied by a woman and her children). If all of us just decide never to stick our neck out for anyone else, because we might end up having to defend ourselves in the process (regardless of what exactly happened here), then everyone is on his own. That's not much of a community.

 

Last thing I don't see mentioned a lot is that if one is armed, every altercation can go to a level of deadly force. Maybe (as GT thinks) if Z hadn't been armed, he wouldn't have felt comfortable checking out the situation. OTOH, maybe he still would have felt a sense of duty to his neighbors and checked it out anyway, and gotten his head beaten (further) into the concrete for his trouble, and died. There is no way to know. Keep in mind, his intent that night, from all evidence, was to help keep his neighbors, including T's family, safe from harm. I guess it's another argument against the isolation most people live in where people don't know any of their neighbors. If T and Z had recognized each other, this never would have happened. 

post #2177 of 6250
Martin was just visiting his father's girlfriend during his weeklong suspension, so it's not like he and Zimmerman were really neighbors.

Anyway, as far as guns and schools go, how many school shootings have been stopped by armed victims? That's right, none!

Well, actually, I know of two offhand, and there could be more. In both cases the "vigilantes" had to run to their cars to get the guns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting
post #2178 of 6250
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by j View Post




Last thing I don't see mentioned a lot is that if one is armed, every altercation can go to a level of deadly force. Maybe (as GT thinks) if Z hadn't been armed, he wouldn't have felt comfortable checking out the situation. OTOH, maybe he still would have felt a sense of duty to his neighbors and checked it out anyway, and gotten his head beaten (further) into the concrete for his trouble, and died. There is no way to know. Keep in mind, his intent that night, from all evidence, was to help keep his neighbors, including T's family, safe from harm. I guess it's another argument against the isolation most people live in where people don't know any of their neighbors. If T and Z had recognized each other, this never would have happened. 

actually, If you read through this, I am torn on this one. if I ahd to say who was the better person, I'd probably be voting for Z here, but I do think that he fucked up, no matter what happened - if T was completly innocent, he killed a kid. if T was a burglar, Z still almost got his head bashed in.

in a perfect world, z would have followed in his car on the phone with the cops. if he hadn't had a gun, maybe he would have done exactly that.
post #2179 of 6250

^I didn't read the whole thread. Maybe so. Maybe he was checking to see if this unrecognized person who was walking between the rows of houses (thus through others' yards, if I read things right), was going to immediately target/ break into someone's occupied house. He seemed to be trying to get an address for the police to respond to. I would hope my neighbor would do the same thing, though not to the extent of contacting the person.

 

I don't think either was a "better person". Both made tactical errors, though Z arguably should have known better. OTOH, what happened in the unrecorded time, who knows. From all the evidence I don't believe that Z would have just attacked a kid. OTOH being followed by some big dude in the dark is almost cause for T to pre-emptively defend/attack. I'm mostly disappointed in how this has been allowed to become a major media issue where the average person's right to self defense when threatened has been brought into question. My position would be the same (an unfortunate, but not-proven-unjustified killing) if all the same had happened, except that T shot Z (yes, despite his age, he has a right to self defense) for confronting (?) him in the dark. From what I know of him, I wouldn't think he had done it maliciously either, and could have been justified depending on what had happened in the unknown time. The difference is that the media frenzy, if any, would have been entirely different. And I doubt you would have any "this is for George" revenge beatings by any White Hispanics.

post #2180 of 6250
Zimmerman and Martin's girlfriend (who says she overheard on the phone) both told the same story about how the fight started, sort of: Martin asked Zimmerman why he was following him. It wasn't like they met in instant, silent combat.

Anyway, again, it's been pretty clearly demonstrated that Martin could have made it home if he'd wanted. He was something like 100 yards from the place he was staying when he first saw Zimmerman, something like 70 yards when Zimmerman started following him. But Martin didn't go home, which is pretty strong evidence he wasn't afraid of Zimmerman.

That, or he was up to no good and didn't want to be followed home where he could be identified.
post #2181 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by j View Post

. My position would be the same (an unfortunate, but not-proven-unjustified killing) if all the same had happened, except that T shot Z (yes, despite his age, he has a right to self defense) for confronting (?) him in the dark. This being said with the understanding that T legally had a gun, as Z legally did. From what I know of him, I wouldn't think he had done it maliciously either, and could have been justified depending on what had happened in the unknown time. The difference is that the media frenzy, if any, would have been entirely different. And I doubt you would have any "this is for George" revenge beatings by any White Hispanics.

Good post and I agree with it 100%.

I did add the bolded line though.

My view of the case is like many. Z was morally and tactically completely wrong. But he well may be Not Guilty per our legal system and Florida's law at the time.

I can see where T would have been scared and might have shot Z in self defense ( especially if Z initiated the fight ) if T had a weapon. But if the weapon was not licensed, that makes things very different.

What say you?
post #2182 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Zimmerman and Martin's girlfriend (who says she overheard on the phone) both told the same story about how the fight started, sort of: Martin asked Zimmerman why he was following him. It wasn't like they met in instant, silent combat.
Anyway, again, it's been pretty clearly demonstrated that Martin could have made it home if he'd wanted. He was something like 100 yards from the place he was staying when he first saw Zimmerman, something like 70 yards when Zimmerman started following him. But Martin didn't go home, which is pretty strong evidence he wasn't afraid of Zimmerman.
That, or he was up to no good and didn't want to be followed home where he could be identified.

With Skittles, a soft drink, and on a cell phone talking to his GF where is an indication that T might have been up to no good?

I'm certainly not in the "Let's get Z for T" camp.

But a lot of the above sure seems like pure conjecture that would never stand up in a court.
post #2183 of 6250

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rnoldh View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by j View Post

. My position would be the same (an unfortunate, but not-proven-unjustified killing) if all the same had happened, except that T shot Z (yes, despite his age, he has a right to self defense) for confronting (?) him in the dark. This being said with the understanding that T legally had a gun, as Z legally did. From what I know of him, I wouldn't think he had done it maliciously either, and could have been justified depending on what had happened in the unknown time. The difference is that the media frenzy, if any, would have been entirely different. And I doubt you would have any "this is for George" revenge beatings by any White Hispanics.

Good post and I agree with it 100%.

I did add the bolded line though.

My view of the case is like many. Z was morally and tactically completely wrong. But he well may be Not Guilty per our legal system and Florida's law at the time.

I can see where T would have been scared and might have shot Z in self defense ( especially if Z initiated the fight ) if T had a weapon. But if the weapon was not licensed, that makes things very different.

What say you?
 

 

It would make things different in the legal system. And because of the legal system, it would make things look different if someone who was technically "unauthorized" (because underage) was carrying a gun. We'd all say "what was some 17-year old doing carrying a gun around, he must have been up to no good". Personally I think "authorization" to defend yourself is crap, but because I would expect most people to comply with such laws, it would seem somewhat suspect, even to me. Morally, though, it wouldn't change anything.

post #2184 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnoldh View Post

With Skittles, a soft drink, and on a cell phone talking to his GF where is an indication that T might have been up to no good?
I'm certainly not in the "Let's get Z for T" camp.
But a lot of the above sure seems like pure conjecture that would never stand up in a court.

Zimmerman says he saw Martin scoping out houses. If Martin was really afraid of Zimmerman he could have gotten away several times over, based on the timestamps on the 911 calls and the scene where it happened. This is not conjecture; it's reasonable inference from known facts.
post #2185 of 6250
Why are you people still following this shit closely?
post #2186 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Quote:
Cops told WKRG that Matthew Owens got in an argument with some kids playing basketball at a court in the city of Mobile on Saturday night. The kids left and a group of some 20 adults arrived at Owens' front doorstep, armed with chairs, brass knuckles, pipes and paint cans.

The group, all African American, allegedly beat him into a bloody pulp
before someone uttered the words that connected the crime to the death of Trayvon Martin, the unarmed teen who was shot and killed in Florida by neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman.

i hope all those punks get caught and each get a 20 year prison sentence for thier crimes. it is thugs like these that disgust me.
post #2187 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by iroh View Post

i hope all those punks get caught and each get a 20 year prison sentence for thier crimes. it is thugs like these that disgust me.

Something tells me that a 12 gauge would make them all run.
post #2188 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by iroh View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Quote:
Cops told WKRG that Matthew Owens got in an argument with some kids playing basketball at a court in the city of Mobile on Saturday night. The kids left and a group of some 20 adults arrived at Owens' front doorstep, armed with chairs, brass knuckles, pipes and paint cans.

The group, all African American, allegedly beat him into a bloody pulp
before someone uttered the words that connected the crime to the death of Trayvon Martin, the unarmed teen who was shot and killed in Florida by neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman.

i hope all those punks get caught and each get a 20 year prison sentence for thier crimes. it is thugs like these that disgust me.

Your sock collection disgusts me.
post #2189 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by iroh View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Quote:
Cops told WKRG that Matthew Owens got in an argument with some kids playing basketball at a court in the city of Mobile on Saturday night. The kids left and a group of some 20 adults arrived at Owens' front doorstep, armed with chairs, brass knuckles, pipes and paint cans.

The group, all African American, allegedly beat him into a bloody pulp
before someone uttered the words that connected the crime to the death of Trayvon Martin, the unarmed teen who was shot and killed in Florida by neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman.

i hope all those punks get caught and each get a 20 year prison sentence for thier crimes. it is thugs like these that disgust me.

I'm glad you were unbanned. Your poignant input has been missed by many.
post #2190 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by edinatlanta View Post

Why are you people still following this shit closely?

No shit
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