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killing Trayvon - Page 143

post #2131 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpeirpont View Post

Sums it up and is why I think he is guilty no matter what facts come out. If he didn't let false courage convince him to approach someone whilst armed no one would be dead.

And I agree with you JP.

But with a reverse outcome.

I think this, " If he didn't let false courage convince him to approach someone whilst armed no one would be dead" is true.

But because of Florida's poorly thought out stand your ground laws, don't you see how the known facts and your summation ( which I agree with ) could get Zimmerman off on a "technicality"?

Any lawyers out there ( particularly Fl. lawyers ) ready to give an opinion on whether if Z could be absolutely morally wrong, as I think, but legally not guilty per what is known so far and Floida's law.
post #2132 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnoldh View Post

you really think that this looks like 2 small scrapes? Sort of like razor burn!

As far as head wounds go, yes, that looks fairly minor. It looks like he has a few fairly minor cuts/scrapes which have bled all over his short hair (as head wounds are wont to do).
post #2133 of 6250
Has no one here ever been involved in a pub/street brawl? That's what it looks like when someone's head has been ground against the tarmac or glassed with a broken bottle.
post #2134 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

As far as head wounds go, yes, that looks fairly minor. It looks like he has a few fairly minor cuts/scrapes which have bled all over his short hair.

I see.

And of course you would discount any chance that Z's nose was broken?

And regard as irrelevant Z's jacket being wet?

Finally, not place any credence in the witness that backed Z's story of T being on top? Of course there are conflicting facts and witnesses but I get the idea that you have pre-judged Z. to be guilty. Granted the case is based on a BS poorly written law ( and I've said that Z is 110% morally wrong ), but do you not see that Z might be "technically" not guilty?
post #2135 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nereis View Post

Has no one here ever been involved in a pub/street brawl? That's what it looks like when someone's head has been ground against the tarmac or glassed with a broken bottle.

I mentioned something like this pages ago. Heads bleed. Gash a guy's forehead and he can't see.
post #2136 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnoldh View Post

I see.
And of course you would discount any chance that Z's nose was broken?
And regard as irrelevant Z's jacket being wet?
Finally, not place any credence in the witness that backed Z's story of T being on top? Of course there are conflicting facts and witnesses but I get the idea that you have pre-judged Z. to be guilty. Granted the case is based on a BS poorly written law ( and I've said that Z is 110% morally wrong ), but do you not see that Z might be "technically" not guilty?

That's a whole lot of extrapolation on your part from a pretty basic observation on mine. It does look like a fairly minor wound. Full stop.
post #2137 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

That's a whole lot of extrapolation on your part from a pretty basic observation on mine. It does look like a fairly minor wound. Full stop.

No problem. You ducked the question of whether you think there is a chance that Z might be not guilty.

We disagree on the wound severity of the cuts and that is OK and understandable.

Obviously we disagree on the Z-T case. And that too is fine. We have a legal system and ultimately a jury will decide on Z's guilt or innocence.

I will wholeheartedly accept their verdict without reservations. Should Z be found guilty that is fine.
post #2138 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoozah View Post

Comparing photos of the two, Z looks twice Treyvones size, and was carrying a weapon. How scared could he have been?

I totally agree, and it's comforting to see that we've both been consuming the same 24 hour news cycle.

How is there even a trial? The man is guilty.

219
post #2139 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnoldh View Post

No problem. You ducked the question of whether you think there is a chance that Z might be not guilty.
We disagree on the wound severity of the cuts and that is OK and understandable.
Obviously we disagree on the Z-T case. And that too is fine. We have a legal system and ultimately a jury will decide on Z's guilt or innocence.
I will wholeheartedly accept their verdict without reservations. Should Z be found guilty that is fine.

lol ok bro. Nice conversation you're having with yourself there.
post #2140 of 6250
Oh, now, after Martin got caught at school with the apparently stolen jewelry and the pry bar, he said they didn't belong to him. No reason to think that's not true. And Martin didn't have any burglary tools on him when Zimmerman saw him, anyway. Next thing you know people will be claiming Martin could have been scoping out houses so he could come back later -- while, say, the owners were at work and he was at home suspended?

And the severity of the head wound Zimmerman actually suffered doesn't matter much. Like if someone takes a shot at you and misses-- no harm no foul? Zimmerman was fighting back when he was injured. If the fight had gone poorly and he couldn't resist the head slamming, what happens to him then? That is why self-defense can be used in response to a reasonable FEAR of imminent serious injury. At any rate, Zimmerman's story is apparently that Martin also tried to take his gun during the fight, which really cements his self-defense claim.

I see two potential problems for Zimmerman's defense. The first is that Zimmerman is somehow cast as the aggressor, in the technical legal sense, notwithstanding that pretty much all the evidence and circumstances support his story. That changes the rules for self-defense. The other scenario is that he's convicted on the basis of people (and at least two experts apparently) claiming that Martin was the one screaming for help at the end of the fight. The idea being that Zimmerman had control was no longer in danger, making him guilty of either manslaughter if he was in the heat of passion (almost certainly the case considering his injuries) or murder, if jpeirpont ends up on the jury.

As far as Martin being killed, it's a tragedy when anyone dies unnecessarily. But I think it's a shame that this incident is going to be used to scare people away from good things--concealed carry, self-defense, watching out for your neighbors, not being afraid to walk in your own neighborhood, and encouraging bad things-- the principal one being the all-too-common use of a racial insult, real or perceived, as justification for physically attacking someone.
post #2141 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnoldh View Post

you really think that this looks like 2 small scrapes? Sort of like razor burn!
216
And no one has refuted that T broke Z's nose though there are statements and witnesses that say that his nose was broke as well as those who say that they didn't think his nose was broke..
So if Z had the above cuts and in fact he did have a broken nose as well as a witness that says T was on top of Z. You don't see how Z could have been defending himself and "technically" innocent per Florida's stand your ground law ( particularly of 2nd degree murder )?
To be clear. I think that Z was 110% morally wrong in what he did. Not because he was carrying a weapon ( for which he had a permit ), But for letting the situation escalate after it was suggested that he wait for the police, and there was no imminent danger from T to Z or to the community.
But also to be clear. I think that if the facts as reported are true and come out in court, then technically ( again per Florida's stand your ground law ) Z was absolutely not guilty of 2nd degree murder.

Yes I do. Small cuts on the scalp bleed like hell. I'm sure after that was cleaned up it was pretty small. I find it hard to believe that that kid was "pounding Z's head against the ground".
post #2142 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post

Yes I do. Small cuts on the scalp bleed like hell. I'm sure after that was cleaned up it was pretty small. I find it hard to believe that that kid was "pounding Z's head against the ground".

Well, you and Gibonius could be right as to the head wounds severity. No one has suggested that the head wounds were self inflicted by Z though.

525

Here's the Hulkster after being beaten by Rick Flair. And we all know how phony wrestling is.
post #2143 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

. murder, if jpeirpont ends up on the jury.

Indeed. With gun ownership comes great responsibilities, one of them should be not to confront people while armed. Z stays in car,observes, calls the cops and lets them do their job, no one dies.
post #2144 of 6250
Uh huh. I don't like his haircut, either, but that doesn't make him a murderer.
post #2145 of 6250
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Uh huh. I don't like his haircut, either, but that doesn't make him a murderer.

Too witty for me, I have no idea what this means.
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