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killing Trayvon - Page 119

post #1771 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosu3 View Post

It's not about whether he was obligated to listen to them or not, more of the fact he was made aware that he shouldn't be following him and there was no good reason to.
a
due the adrenaline i doubt he was hearing much of what she said, FWIW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reggs View Post

Zimmerman apparently purchased this from the jail store. I didn't know that jails had stores.

yeah, atlanta makes all intakes buy a welcome pack I think it was called for $9.72 with a roll of TP and basic toiletries. I gave mine away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Oh, here's something I know will drive folks here crazy.
My new neighborhood is built out, so the part about new construction is moot, but it mandates all houses shall have a minimum of three garage bays.

The fuck do you need a three+ fucking car garage for? And your point pretty thoroughly undermines your belief about HOAs value as yours is pretty clearly interfering with residents' lives in a way that has zero impact on anyone's property values.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrG View Post

Piob, I think the problem here is that your threshold for annoyance is dramatically lower than most people. Some of the examples that have come up are bothersome to most of us, but there are a lot of things we accept as part of living around other people that seem to drive you nuts.

Yes, and what he's upset about is stuff that's pretty accepted, and acceptable, for living in a neighborhood. I mean, that in public areas you may have to interact with your neighbors using a shared space? Well I never!

Also Piob, serious question but you mention the front of the house for the bball hoop, does that extend to the back of the house? I mean, to me it sounds like you're genuinely opposed to low-level audible noise floating into your house. THat seems like a frankly unattainable or unrealistic goal for living in proximity to other houses. The lawnmower example from MrG is a good one as would be someone who is constantly moving in and outdoors. I could probably hear my neighbors shutting their door and it could be an annoyance. The best way to deal with it is just to say something to that person, I guess.

And preventing the Persian homes, a better idea would be to create stricter or clearer zoning regulations, not HOAs IMO, due to the latter's pettiness and ability to overreach.
post #1772 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by edinatlanta View Post

The fuck do you need a three+ fucking car garage for? And your point pretty thoroughly undermines your belief about HOAs value as yours is pretty clearly interfering with residents' lives in a way that has zero impact on anyone's property values.

Uh, for 3+ vehicles? Or for two vehicles plus bikes, motorcycles, etc? Also, this is not "my" belief in any meaningful sense. It is the belief of apparently everyone from law professors to real estate professionals. TJLYOM.
Quote:
Also Piob, serious question but you mention the front of the house for the bball hoop, does that extend to the back of the house? I mean, to me it sounds like you're genuinely opposed to low-level audible noise floating into your house. THat seems like a frankly unattainable or unrealistic goal for living in proximity to other houses. The lawnmower example from MrG is a good one as would be someone who is constantly moving in and outdoors. I could probably hear my neighbors shutting their door and it could be an annoyance. The best way to deal with it is just to say something to that person, I guess.

And preventing the Persian homes, a better idea would be to create stricter or clearer zoning regulations, not HOAs IMO, due to the latter's pettiness and ability to overreach.

Reading comprehension. You doesn't haz it. I stated this was a problem on another street, not mine, and not something I was involved in. I merely repeated what the compliant said, and of course, everyone decides to ascribe it to me personally. CE at its best FTW.
post #1773 of 6250
Saw a house with a six-bay garage once. Two stories, built on/into the side of a hill. Could fit a lot of toys in there, am I right?
post #1774 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Reading comprehension. You doesn't haz it. I stated this was a problem on another street, not mine, and not something I was involved in. I merely repeated what the compliant said, and of course, everyone decides to ascribe it to me personally. CE at its best FTW.

No, you missed the point. One of your arguments for an HOA is to eliminate low level, common neighborhood noises that intermittently sprinkle throughout the day.

That isn't a particularly strong endorsement for HOAs is what I'm getting at.

And outside of collectors, really? There are that many people who need or have a fucking fleet of vehicles?
post #1775 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by edinatlanta View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Reading comprehension. You doesn't haz it. I stated this was a problem on another street, not mine, and not something I was involved in. I merely repeated what the compliant said, and of course, everyone decides to ascribe it to me personally. CE at its best FTW.

No, you missed the point. One of your arguments for an HOA is to eliminate low level, common neighborhood noises that intermittently sprinkle throughout the day.

That isn't a particularly strong endorsement for HOAs is what I'm getting at.

And outside of collectors, really? There are that many people who need or have a fucking fleet of vehicles?

Of course I missed the point. rolleyes.gif

My "argument" can be summed up as follows: HOAs help maintain the character of a neighborhood, and by doing this, it helps protect property values. Feel free to disagree with me and the law professor from U of Chicago all you want.

As for the bolded, you are just being a dick. Husband/wife/adult children. Odds of three or more cars? Husband/wife with their daily driver and a pick up or other more utilitarian vehicle for other uses? Maybe a nice fishing boat they don't want exposed to the weather? Please continue to get high and mighty over the number of garages. I knew when I put that out there this would happen.
post #1776 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Of course I missed the point. rolleyes.gif
My "argument" can be summed up as follows: HOAs help maintain the character of a neighborhood, and by doing this, it helps protect property values. Feel free to disagree with me and the law professor from U of Chicago all you want.
As for the bolded, you are just being a dick. Husband/wife/adult children. Odds of three or more cars? Husband/wife with their daily driver and a pick up or other more utilitarian vehicle for other uses? Maybe a nice fishing boat they don't want exposed to the weather? Please continue to get high and mighty over the number of garages. I knew when I put that out there this would happen.

Your schtick of pretending to be stupid wears thin almost immediately... and you did miss the point.

Look, no one's doubting that they can protect home values, they may be quite efficacious at it. What we're saying is their propensity to overreach, create neighborhood tyrannies or otherwise necessarily infringe on property rights make them, on the whole, intrinsically not worth it... I mean you mention your supposedly good HOA that also includes regulations about how much stuff you can keep in your garage... If that's a good HOA, what would be bad?

And I can see a "need" for three or more cars but its just baffling that there is such a widespread need for that many vehicles in a household... it just seems, well I don't know what the right word is...
post #1777 of 6250
...normal?

Like Piob said, three cars, a place to store a lawnmower, tools, maybe a workshop (or a "studio" for you fruity types), a boat, a parts or project car for me and harvey, household/seasonal storage etc. Like I said, six bays.
post #1778 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by edinatlanta View Post

No, you missed the point. One of your arguments for an HOA is to eliminate low level, common neighborhood noises that intermittently sprinkle throughout the day.
That isn't a particularly strong endorsement for HOAs is what I'm getting at.
And outside of collectors, really? There are that many people who need or have a fucking fleet of vehicles?

I'd love a three car garage. You realize that not everyone actually fills garage space with cars? Anyway, my fiancee and I have three cars between us and a couple of kayaks on a trailer. Not to mention space for woodworking projects. I'd endure an Edina family Christmas every year for a three-car garage.

I didn't know I was such an elitist.
post #1779 of 6250
Have we seen evidence that HOAs do, in fact, maintain home prices at a higher level. There are a lot of arguments which would make me suspect otherwise. That is different from can, or can attempt to, I mean do.
post #1780 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsstillmatt View Post

Have we seen evidence that HOAs do, in fact, maintain home prices at a higher level. There are a lot of arguments which would make me suspect otherwise. That is different from can, or can attempt to, I mean do.

What I'd really like to know is the probability of occurrence of someone having three rusting pickups n the kind of neighborhood Pio lives in if there was no law against it. Not that I am an expert on HOAs or anything considering I didn't know such a thing existed before reading some CE post about them.
post #1781 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsstillmatt View Post

Have we seen evidence that HOAs do, in fact, maintain home prices at a higher level. There are a lot of arguments which would make me suspect otherwise. That is different from can, or can attempt to, I mean do.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv28n3/v28n3-2.pdf

Conclusion? HOA is worth 5% more.

I think this fails to capture isolated instances though. IMO, the real power comes in preventing the neighborhood "problem" family. The one that lets their house get run down, doesn't take care of the yard, has a ratty old couch on the porch, etc. This house will not impact the entire neighborhood in a material way but it sure as hell is going to materially impact the adjacent homes.
post #1782 of 6250
Interesting. I would have guessed that HOA homes would have been slightly more expensive in Price William county (second study) just by the area. It is one of the cheaper areas around DC (given its distance from business areas, lower school performance, etc) where a lot of minorities and immigrants live and issues of overcrowding, etc have been prevalent. I think HOAs is such areas do add value since your neighbors may not understand/share etiquette and values due to cultural diversity. HOAs are uncommon in more closed-in neighborshoods of the same metro area (McLean, Great Falls, North Arlington) where property values are dramatically higher than Prince Williams, usually 3X and up.
post #1783 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by cross22 View Post

Interesting. I would have guessed that HOA homes would have been slightly more expensive in Price William county (second study) just by the area. It is one of the cheaper areas around DC (given its distance from business areas, lower school performance, etc) where a lot of minorities and immigrants live and issues of overcrowding, etc have been prevalent. I think HOAs is such areas do add value since your neighbors may not understand/share etiquette and norms due to cultural diversity. HOAs are uncommon in more closed-in neighborshoods of the same metro area (McLean, Great Falls, North Arlington) where property values are dramatically higher than Prince Williams, usually 3X and up.

You raise a very good point here. Another point the paper makes is they are not as elite as some would make out. I think that statement varies in accuracy around the country. I think in some areas of the country, mainly new construction, affluent transplant areas, it might give different results. What also needs to be kept in mind is that deed restrictions often exist in even the most elite neighborhoods. If there is no HOA your neighbors can still sue you for breaking the deed restrictions. Back to the instance of views, many areas with views specify single story of a certain height, so the views are blocked as little as possible. If you build a house higher than the deed restriction, and there is no HOA, the only difference is your neighbors will sue you (if they feel like it) vs. the HOA enforcing it.
post #1784 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv28n3/v28n3-2.pdf
Conclusion? HOA is worth 5% more.
I think this fails to capture isolated instances though. IMO, the real power comes in preventing the neighborhood "problem" family. The one that lets their house get run down, doesn't take care of the yard, has a ratty old couch on the porch, etc. This house will not impact the entire neighborhood in a material way but it sure as hell is going to materially impact the adjacent homes.

That isn't really the question with regard to investment. The question is whether they maintain their value better. My guess would be no since economic prosperity is correlated within regions and the increased standardization of homes in a given HOA will make them perform more as an undifferentiated commodity, which probably makes them more volatile both in good and bad markets. What that study says is that if you are in a non-HOA you can get a couple bucks by forming one, which is beside the point when buying in.

The problem child in an HOA is invariably the person who takes it upon himself to make sure all rules are followed to the letter, not the one with the ratty couch.
post #1785 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsstillmatt View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv28n3/v28n3-2.pdf
Conclusion? HOA is worth 5% more.
I think this fails to capture isolated instances though. IMO, the real power comes in preventing the neighborhood "problem" family. The one that lets their house get run down, doesn't take care of the yard, has a ratty old couch on the porch, etc. This house will not impact the entire neighborhood in a material way but it sure as hell is going to materially impact the adjacent homes.

That isn't really the question with regard to investment. The question is whether they maintain their value better. My guess would be no since economic prosperity is correlated within regions and the increased standardization of homes in a given HOA will make them perform more as an undifferentiated commodity, which probably makes them more volatile both in good and bad markets. What that study says is that if you are in a non-HOA you can get a couple bucks by forming one, which is beside the point when buying in.

I think you are incorrect in your assessment of what the study shows and that what it does show is that an HOA has maintained the value better than non-HOA areas, at the present time, in a given geographic area, and that is where you get your 5% in value from.

All this talk has made me really tear apart the financials of my HOA. I have to say I'm impressed. It's five years old, has a complete set of reserve studies done, all depreciation is fully funded and they have yet to take action against anyone living there. I can't wait to get moved in and pay my first quarter in dues. Think I'm going to get on the board and Mrs. Piob is talking about getting on the architectural review given her area of knowledge.
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