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killing Trayvon - Page 113

post #1681 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

I guess I'm one of those horrible HOA people. A house is the biggest investment most people will make in their lives and I do not think the actions of their neighbors should materially impact the value of that investment and I also do not think neighbors should be allowed to impact the reasonable and quiet enjoyment of their property.
Serious question: do you think your neighbor should be allowed to blast death metal all night long?

I don't buy the investment argument. It is like saying that other investors perceptions of the stock market shouldn't be allowed to materially impact the value of your stocks. Or saying that Google shouldn't be able to do anything that might change the value of Microsoft. Investments carry risk of loss.

There is a big difference between blasting death metal all night long and housepainting preferences. I am generally the last person to complain about noise, and noise codes are typically governed by municipal laws which suffice, but no, I don't think people should be able to blast music of any sort at all hours.
post #1682 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Did you read the entire example? Your peace and quiet is compromised by the constant "bounce bounce" noise of the ball and the general screaming of the kids. You are at the end of a cul de sac (I mentioned entering and exiting but did not express it clearly) and this impromptu court is between you and the entrance to the cul de sac. You have to approach carefully and sit there and wait for the kids to clear the court whenever you enter or leave.
Is this really fair?

Damn you have to be a horribly annoying neighbor (if you complain about this). I don't know if any of it is "fair"but it is a more than reasonable (if annoying part) part of community life.
post #1683 of 6250
How about a better example? A couple years back, in one of the older-but-still-fairly-affluent downtown neighborhoods near here, someone put up a 10-ft paper mache Obama head in their front yard. You gotta love yuppies.
post #1684 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsstillmatt View Post


I don't buy the investment argument. It is like saying that other investors perceptions of the stock market shouldn't be allowed to materially impact the value of your stocks. Or saying that Google shouldn't be able to do anything that might change the value of Microsoft. Investments carry risk of loss.

There is a big difference between blasting death metal all night long and housepainting preferences. I am generally the last person to complain about noise, and noise codes are typically governed by municipal laws which suffice, but no, I don't think people should be able to blast music of any sort at all hours.

I think there is a difference, for the average person, between the stock market and residential real estate. The differences are many from level of liquidity, size, and character. People generally put money into the market knowing there is very real risk but people generally expect residential real estate not to carry a material amount of risk, let alone volatility. Of course the past several years are an anomaly to this.

I do not think there is a big difference between the two scenarios. I'm not talking about fighting over shades of tan I am talking about choices that upset the aesthetic harmony or character of a neighborhood and foreseeably impact property values.

FWIW I've had my HOA give me a warning letter about my landscaping so it's not like I've never butted heads with them. I just see some value to them when designed and implemented well.
post #1685 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpeirpont View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Did you read the entire example? Your peace and quiet is compromised by the constant "bounce bounce" noise of the ball and the general screaming of the kids. You are at the end of a cul de sac (I mentioned entering and exiting but did not express it clearly) and this impromptu court is between you and the entrance to the cul de sac. You have to approach carefully and sit there and wait for the kids to clear the court whenever you enter or leave.
Is this really fair?

Damn you have to be a horribly annoying neighbor (if you complain about this). I don't know if any of it is "fair"but it is a more than reasonable (if annoying part) part of community life.

All reasonable people agree.
post #1686 of 6250
You really don't see a big difference between paint color and music blasted at all hours? I'm just not sure if you are serious here or "probing."

The investment explanation doesn't wash either.
post #1687 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsstillmatt View Post

You really don't see a big difference between paint color and music blasted at all hours? I'm just not sure if you are serious here or "probing."

The investment explanation doesn't wash either.

I seriously think it's a matter of degree as to how much society/the local community can enforce their will upon what you do with your property. A true libertarian would say the guy can blast his music and it's tough shit if you don't like it. We move from there towards what impositions society can place on the property owner's unimpeded use of his property.

I figured the investment explanation would not work for you but it seriously works for me so I'm good with it.
post #1688 of 6250
You should never have to deal with anything that upsets you.
post #1689 of 6250
Let me try and reframe this.

I am not saying every neighborhood has to have an HOA.

I'm not saying an HOA is necessarily a good thing. I'm also not buying the people making universal statements they suck.

What I am saying is that an HOA can allow a group of people to move into a neighborhood with a certain character, a set of rules designed to maintain this character, and enforce these rules to maintain the character of that neighborhood.

If you do not want to participate in this then don't buy a house with an HOA. It's pretty simple.

FWIW, I studied the HOA my new house falls under thoroughly as part of the conditions of the purchase offer. I completely agree if you move into an area with an HOA your values do not align with it would suck.
post #1690 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Did you read the entire example? Your peace and quiet is compromised by the constant "bounce bounce" noise of the ball and the general screaming of the kids. You are at the end of a cul de sac (I mentioned entering and exiting but did not express it clearly) and this impromptu court is between you and the entrance to the cul de sac. You have to approach carefully and sit there and wait for the kids to clear the court whenever you enter or leave.
Is this really fair?

I did, and I don't see what you think I missed. I don't really think the sound of a bouncing basketball and playing kids is all that horrible, and I gladly leave my doors open when such sounds are emanating from my neighborhood. Perhaps the "bounce" noise would be annoying, but so are lawnmowers. There are just some things we have to accept when we live in neighborhoods

I suppose I can see where maneuvering around the kids could be an annoyance, and I'd probably groan about it, but I really don't have a problem with it. People who live in neighborhoods generally have (or have had) children, which is why they need the space a neighborhood provides. This is really just a side effect of that. Your example makes it sound like the homeowner put the hoop so that the street became the "court." If that's the case, I can see being upset about someone erecting a permanent structure on a shared road, but that's really academic, given I wouldn't have any problem with the kids playing something like street hockey with movable goals.

Of all the things I worry about in my neighborhood, taking an extra 60 seconds a day to let kids who are playing get out of my way ranks near the bottom of the list. The alternative is fatass kids who sit inside and play Xbox all day, which, given the nature of health insurance, has a much more material impact on my life.
post #1691 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

I seriously think it's a matter of degree as to how much society/the local community can enforce their will upon what you do with your property. A true libertarian would say the guy can blast his music and it's tough shit if you don't like it. We move from there towards what impositions society can place on the property owner's unimpeded use of his property.
I figured the investment explanation would not work for you but it seriously works for me so I'm good with it.

Who is your fabled true libertarian, and who appointed you to speak for him? You don't see a difference, apparently, with somebody creating soundwaves and placing them in your house in the middle of the night, and somebody painting their house, on their property, in a color you dislike? It is the difference between somebody punching you and somebody wearing an ugly suit in your vicinity. Before you go on about how you see his new color from your house, your viewing of that color is both external to your property, as much as the sunset is not governed by your HOA, and the action of looking out at somebody's house is active, not passive. There, you now have a true libertarian argument for the difference, and one that makes perfect practical sense to boot.
post #1692 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrG View Post

I suppose I can see where it could be an annoyance, and I'd probably groan about it, but I really don't have a problem with it. People who live in neighborhoods generally have (or have had) children, which is why they need the space a neighborhood provides. This is really just a side effect of that. Your example makes it sound like the homeowner put the hoop so that the street became the "court." If that's the case, I can see being annoyed by it, but that's really academic, given I wouldn't have any problem with the kids playing something like street hockey with movable goals.

Perhaps the "bounce" noise would be annoying, but so are lawnmowers. There are just some things we have to accept when we live in neighborhoods.

Of all the things I worry about in my neighborhood, taking an extra 60 seconds a day to let kids who are playing get out of my way ranks near the bottom of the list. The alternative is fatass kids who sit inside and play Xbox all day, which, given the nature of health insurance, has a much more material impact on my life.

Yes, the street becomes the court.

The simple answer is, if you want to do this, don't move into an area with an HOA that stipulates basket ball hoops shall not be installed in the front of your home. If it does say this I think it's reasonable for people buying there to expect this shall not happen, don't you? I mean, can you not see people make buying decisions based in part on what the HOA allows and disallows? Is it not reasonable to expect the rules of the HOA be applied?

Btw, yes, this did happen in my neighborhood. Not on my cul de sac but on the next one over. It came up at the annual board meeting and the hoop had to be taken down.
post #1693 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsstillmatt View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

I seriously think it's a matter of degree as to how much society/the local community can enforce their will upon what you do with your property. A true libertarian would say the guy can blast his music and it's tough shit if you don't like it. We move from there towards what impositions society can place on the property owner's unimpeded use of his property.
I figured the investment explanation would not work for you but it seriously works for me so I'm good with it.

Who is your fabled true libertarian, and who appointed you to speak for him? You don't see a difference, apparently, with somebody creating soundwaves and placing them in your house in the middle of the night, and somebody painting their house, on their property, in a color you dislike? It is the difference between somebody punching you and somebody wearing an ugly suit in your vicinity. Before you go on about how you see his new color from your house, your viewing of that color is both external to your property, as much as the sunset is not governed by your HOA, and the action of looking out at somebody's house is active, not passive. There, you now have a true libertarian argument for the difference, and one that makes perfect practical sense to boot.

I do see a difference but I do not see the difference as you do. Again, if you want to live in an area with no restrictions on how everyone paints their house, by all means live in such an area. If you want to live in an area where a certain aesthetic has been created and you would like to see maintained? Move into an area with an HOA that will keep it that way.
post #1694 of 6250
In fairness to Piob, when he looks at the ugly paint he's actually seeing light that has reflected from it into his property.
post #1695 of 6250
All I can say is Piob's neighborhood sounds like it's full of wonderful uppity people and I'm glad as fuck I don't live there.
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