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killing Trayvon - Page 87

post #1291 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambulance Chaser View Post

Which version do you want?
1. Sweet honors student is returning home from the store with Skittles and ice tea when he is hunted down and killed in cold blood by trigger-happy, racist lunatic.
2. Conscientious neighborhood watchman follows suspicious-looking thug on suspension from high school, is confronted, sucker punched and beaten to an inch of his life, forcing him to use his gun in self-defense.

3. Piece of human garbage stupidly kills other piece of human garbage who is also dumb. Entire state of Florida should be kicked out of the union.
post #1292 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

No, that's not what I'm saying. "Watch out for" does not mean pursue and attempt to confront. And "self defense" does not mean "acting in such a manner that can, with a reasonable degree of foresight, be seen to cause a confrontation." IMO, self defense would indicate Z was minding his own business and M attacked him.
Don't try to make me out as someone that does not support gun ownership as you will fail there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Can be seen to cause a confrontation--what does that mean? You seem to have difficulty with the word "confrontation" like that other poster. Confronting someone means, well, engaging them.
"Excuse me, son, what's your business here?" is confronting someone. It's not improper, it's not picking a fight, it doesn't make Zimmerman the aggressor. That's bullshit. You can maybe argue that Z should have played it safe, but that's as far as that goes, and you should admit that it was his decision to make.

I have to agree with Ataturk here on both issues. Z had both a right, and if he was in neighborhood watch, arguably a responsibility, to see what a suspicious character was doing in his neighborhood. The fact that he was carrying does not alter that. I do not know at what distance he was following T from, whether T heard the call go into the cops, what their response times to the neighborhood were in past events, so it's dificult for me to condemn his actions without knowing specifics. Had I been in that situation, I'd have kept a safe distance, but I don't know the specifics. On whether or not it was self-defense, I'd say that Piob's reasoning is wrong. A lot of people are conflating the issue that Z followed T until he stopped and turned around -if we're to believe that- with the act of self-defense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eg1 View Post

We Catholics are doing a fine job of that all by ourselves, thank you very much. So good, in fact, what makes you think that your contributions would be noticed? tongue.gif

Well, young boys anyway.
post #1293 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by harvey_birdman View Post

3. Piece of human garbage stupidly kills other piece of human garbage who is also dumb. Entire state of Florida should be kicked out of the union.

Guy A, who is a tough guy who won't back down from a fight, meets Guy B, who is a tough guy and won't back down from a fight. Guy B has a gun. Guy A dies. Everyone loses, the end.
post #1294 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post

Agreed. Self-defense is a right everyone has. But policing should be left to the professionals.

We have no constitutional right to police protection.

Plus, plenty of the "professionals" aren't worth anything anyway. When I was at UW, some girl was murdered after she called the police saying she thought there was a creepy guy stalking her and he was hanging out outside her apartment. The dispatcher decided it was a prank and hung up on her. She was found dead the next day.
post #1295 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQgeek View Post

Z had both a right, and if he was in neighborhood watch, arguably a responsibility, to see what a suspicious character was doing in his neighborhood.

And the reason why T was suspicious is because he was black, and wearing a hoodie.

I have to say, I totally understand where Z is coming from now. When I see a hooded black man in my neighborhood, I get suspicious too (tough-looking hooded white guys not so much, for some reason they seem more...harmless, and kind of funny).

I believe I have reason to be suspicious, because this person looks like he's up to no good. Even if the police tells me not to follow said hooded black person. After all, most criminal behavior in this country is carried out by hooded black men. Yeah, that seems about right. You know what, as a responsible member of my neighborhood watch, I'll ignore what the police tells me and follow said black man to see what he's up to. I could potentially be saving a life here people!

Yay thinly veiled racism!
post #1296 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post


Plus, plenty of the "professionals" aren't worth anything anyway.

Fair enough. The cops are terrible a lot of the time, but I don't think the answer is self appointed guardians of the neighborhood following people around with handguns. All that leads to is more terrible situations like this one.
post #1297 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQgeek View Post


I have to agree with Ataturk here on both issues. Z had both a right, and if he was in neighborhood watch, arguably a responsibility, to see what a suspicious character was doing in his neighborhood. The fact that he was carrying does not alter that. I do not know at what distance he was following T from, whether T heard the call go into the cops, what their response times to the neighborhood were in past events, so it's dificult for me to condemn his actions without knowing specifics. Had I been in that situation, I'd have kept a safe distance, but I don't know the specifics. On whether or not it was self-defense, I'd say that Piob's reasoning is wrong. A lot of people are conflating the issue that Z followed T until he stopped and turned around -if we're to believe that- with the act of self-defense.

You could not be more wrong on all of these points. The only correct point is Z had a right to make a whole list of shitty decisions. He made them and here we all are. Neighborhood Watch is about reporting, not intervening. Carrying does alter one's responsible set of responses. If Z had not had a gun the two would have had a donnybrook and there's the end of that. Because Z had a gun we've got this shit storm.
post #1298 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by harvey_birdman View Post

3. Piece of human garbage stupidly kills other piece of human garbage who is also dumb. Entire state of Florida should be kicked out of the union.

This is the kind of 'look how tough, cynical and cool I am' nonsense that, luckily, most of us hear only on teh internets.
post #1299 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post

Guy A, who is a tough guy who won't back down from a fight, meets Guy B, who is a tough guy and won't back down from a fight. Guy B has a gun. Guy A dies. Everyone loses, the end.

B goes to prison and is raped by the Nation of Islam. Everyone wins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PipersSon View Post

This is the kind of 'look how tough, cynical and cool I am' nonsense that, luckily, most of us hear only on teh internets.

Srsly, I'm this cynical in real life.
post #1300 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by ldegeneve View Post

And the reason why T was suspicious is because he was black, and wearing a hoodie.
I have to say, I totally understand where Z is coming from now. When I see a hooded black man in my neighborhood, I get suspicious too (tough-looking hooded white guys not so much, for some reason they seem more...harmless, and kind of funny).
I believe I have reason to be suspicious, because this person looks like he's up to no good. Even if the police tells me not to follow said hooded black person. After all, most criminal behavior in this country is carried out by hooded black men. Yeah, that seems about right. You know what, as a responsible member of my neighborhood watch, I'll ignore what the police tells me and follow said black man to see what he's up to. I could potentially be saving a life here people!
Yay thinly veiled racism!

Oh, FFS, it's like you took all the dumbest posts in this thread and distilled them into a single post of epic stupidity.
post #1301 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by ldegeneve View Post

And the reason why T was suspicious is because he was black, and wearing a hoodie.
I have to say, I totally understand where Z is coming from now. When I see a hooded black man in my neighborhood, I get suspicious too (tough-looking hooded white guys not so much, for some reason they seem more...harmless, and kind of funny).
I believe I have reason to be suspicious, because this person looks like he's up to no good. Even if the police tells me not to follow said hooded black person. After all, most criminal behavior in this country is carried out by hooded black men. Yeah, that seems about right. You know what, as a responsible member of my neighborhood watch, I'll ignore what the police tells me and follow said black man to see what he's up to. I could potentially be saving a life here people!
Yay thinly veiled racism!

Well, I finally listened to the audio and actually, the reason Z said he was suspicious was because he was walking around in the rain, stopping and looking at houses, and maybe on drugs or something.. Saying that he was black was a direct response to a question from the dispatcher asking if he was white, black or hispanic and was not a reason given by Z as to why he felt T was suspicious. That he was wearing a hoodie was also just part of a description. The whole "fucking coons" thing is imagined. He said "fucking punks" quite clearly.
post #1302 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post

Fair enough. The cops are terrible a lot of the time, but I don't think the answer is self appointed guardians of the neighborhood following people around with handguns. All that leads to is more terrible situations like this one.

I agree that it isn't the answer. I just don't know if there is an answer, unfortunately.
post #1303 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQgeek View Post

Well, I finally listened to the audio and actually, the reason Z said he was suspicious was because he was walking around in the rain, stopping and looking at houses, and maybe on drugs or something.. Saying that he was black was a direct response to a question from the dispatcher asking if he was white, black or hispanic and was not a reason given by Z as to why he felt T was suspicious. That he was wearing a hoodie was also just part of a description. The whole "fucking coons" thing is imagined. He said "fucking punks" quite clearly.

He didnt say either quite clearly.
post #1304 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQgeek View Post

Well, I finally listened to the audio and actually, the reason Z said he was suspicious was because he was walking around in the rain, stopping and looking at houses, and maybe on drugs or something.. Saying that he was black was a direct response to a question from the dispatcher asking if he was white, black or hispanic and was not a reason given by Z as to why he felt T was suspicious.

C'mon, let's be real here. No one, including Zimmerman, would have openly said "I think he's suspicious because he's black." Racism in our society is subtle, yet pervasive, and reverberating (clearly). You think Zimmerman would have been as suspicious if the kid was white? Asian?

Yeah, didn't think so.

Again, let's be real. We think black people are more dangerous. That's why we have people like Geraldo Rivera running around telling "black and Latino kids especially" not to wear hoodies. Yes, because it makes them look less dangerous than they already are, by virtue of looking like they do.

And people actually call this "practical advice." The problem isn't just Zimmerman. It's us.
post #1305 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrG View Post

Oh, FFS, it's like you took all the dumbest posts in this thread and distilled them into a single post of epic stupidity.

A highlight reel, if you will. For the people not willing to go through 87 pages.
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