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killing Trayvon - Page 85

post #1261 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by CYstyle View Post

Not really sure what the heck i'm listening to it. is it the same track on repeat 3x?
Also the article said it's only a 48% match to z, a 90% or greater = certainty. It did not state how much of a match it would be to M.

I don't have a horse in this race and I agree that it doesn't sound conclusive at all. They have someone screaming for help that was caught on a neighbor's call to police, presumably from indoors. They don't even have a sample of the victim to compare against the recording, so they're saying because it was only a 50% match, it must have been the other guy. Well, even if they had the other guy's voice, he might only be a 50% match too. receiver...

Plus, Z apparently told cops after the shooting (at the scene, is my understanding) that he was the one screaming for help. He'd have to be pretty sharp and with it (after he just shot a guy to death) to think to say that, knowing that it would be difficult for anyone to say that it was not him screaming, but the other guy, if that's what the truth is. And of course he would not have known there'd be a recording. I'm not an expert on the issue of how coherent people that kill people are after the event, and don't know his state of mind at the time, so maybe this is reaching or maybe it's not.

honestly, the media should stfu. All they're going to do is make it impossible to get an impartial jury, but maybe that is the point. i despise the media.
post #1262 of 6250
Remember there are some witnesses who aren't sure who was crying for help and at least one who is sure it was Z. Don't know what that means. There's also the possibility (that I'm sure this expert considered, then again...) that both of them were screaming.

That said if it really was Martin screaming at the end, it kind of makes sense. Zimmerman was much bigger and should have eventually gotten the upper hand in the fight. I wonder what other injuries Martin had.
post #1263 of 6250
At this point I do not believe a witness with exculpatory testimony will come forward. Like the kid who's mother is convincing him he really didn't see what he told investigators he did. Who wants to face the wrath of the crazies or feel like it was your testimony that caused the riots?
post #1264 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Remember there are some witnesses who aren't sure who was crying for help and at least one who is sure it was Z. Don't know what that means. There's also the possibility (that I'm sure this expert considered, then again...) that both of them were screaming.
That said if it really was Martin screaming at the end, it kind of makes sense. Zimmerman was much bigger and should have eventually gotten the upper hand in the fight. I wonder what other injuries Martin had.

A lot is made of his size vs the victim's, but when i was a teen I got into a couple of fights with boys that were significantly larger (50%) than I was and won. It comes down to aggression and skill. And in this case we're not talking about 2 trained fighters of equal skill here. Everyone reacts differently when violence is done to them. Some people just curl up and try to block the blows, never throwing a single punch, even when they're bigger. I'm sure there are lots of big guys out there that are are total pussies when push comes to shove. Z has a police record and it seems like he might have been an asshole, but the size thing wouldn't convince me, on its own, that it had to be the other guy because the big guy should have won the fight.
post #1265 of 6250
Isn't Zimmerman like 5'9" and Martin was 6'3"? Zimmerman might have weighed more, but a beer gut isn't as useful in a fight as an extra half a foot of height (and presumably proportional limb length) would be.
post #1266 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post

Isn't Zimmerman like 5'9" and Martin was 6'3"? Zimmerman might have weighed more, but a beer gut isn't as useful in a fight as an extra half a foot of height (and presumably proportional limb length) would be.

Height doesn't matter on the ground, but I think trying to assess the outcome of a fight between these two on the basis of physical traits is a waste of time. I once saw a skinny korean kid at my school take on 5 chinese kids at the same time because he was agressive as hell. Sheer aggressiveness counts for a lot, but again, i don't know anything about either of these guys, so I'd never presume to know the outcome of a fight between them.
post #1267 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Well that's interesting. I know enough not to trust expert witnesses (on anything), but if that's repeatable he's in trouble. Unless he comes up with a couple thousand to buy his own, that is.

Unless they can prove that it's Martin's voice, then it doesn't really change things. At worst it proves that somebody other than Zimmerman was screaming for help. I can certainly imagine someone else at the scene screaming "help". People witnessing things like that often panic, and yell out the first thing that comes to mind. Not a perfect argument but it's just what I came up with off the top of my head on a Sunday morning. It might be kind of weak if I had to plead self-defense as an affirmative defense but as we know the state has the burden here to prove him wrong. And in any case, the only eyewitness that we are aware of says otherwise. Or at least I think he does. I admit I haven't been following the story that closely the past few days.
post #1268 of 6250
Martin's aggressiveness gets Zimmerman on the ground with a broken nose. After that Zimmerman should have been able to gain the upper hand. Didn't I read somewhere that he used to be a bouncer?

If Z really did eventually overpower M and shoot him in a rage, that's manslaughter at least.
post #1269 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQgeek View Post

Height doesn't matter on the ground

Unless you are a highly trained fighter, the fight is pretty much won by the time you are on the ground. Whoever is on top when you go down (no homo) is holding all the cards at that point. I agree with the rest of what you said.
post #1270 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpeirpont View Post

19th century Turks.

laugh.gif
post #1271 of 6250
They say Z outweighed M by 60-100lbs, depending on the numbers you use. Time is on his side in a fight; I don't think 160lb M could do enough damage to take Z out of the fight (he didn't, obviously), and the longer it goes on the more likely Z is to prevail. And the other accounts seem to suggest that the fight went on longer than Z's account implies.

Even if you believe Martin started the fight (which seems likely given Z's injuries) and that Z was initially the one calling for help, it's still possible that Z ended up winning the fight and that this was a bad shoot.
post #1272 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

If Z really did eventually overpower M and shoot him in a rage, that's manslaughter at least.

People keep bringing this up but I don't get it. Maybe I don't understand the manslaughter laws that well but I always thought they were for accidental killings only. If he did get Martin pinned down and shot him, how is that anything less than 2nd degree murder? It's not like he was aiming for his foot, he put two in his chest. I can see some mitigating circumstances.

As a guy who believes pretty strongly in gun rights, this is really testing my faith. I'm surprised at how much the racial issue has overshadowed the gun control issue here, because this is a better argument for gun control than anything I've seen in years. I can't see the NRA counter arguing that if Martin had a gun he would have survived.
post #1273 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

They say Z outweighed M by 60-100lbs, depending on the numbers you use. Time is on his side in a fight; I don't think 160lb M could do enough damage to take Z out of the fight (he didn't, obviously), and the longer it goes on the more likely Z is to prevail. And the other accounts seem to suggest that the fight went on longer than Z's account implies.
Even if you believe Martin started the fight (which seems likely given Z's injuries) and that Z was initially the one calling for help, it's still possible that Z ended up winning the fight and that this was a bad shoot.

Oh I'm perfectly willing to believe this might have been a bad shooting. I just think that, with the evidence that has come out, that's going to be damn hard to prove.
post #1274 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post

People keep bringing this up but I don't get it. Maybe I don't understand the manslaughter laws that well but I always thought they were for accidental killings only. If he did get Martin pinned down and shot him, how is that anything less than 2nd degree murder? It's not like he was aiming for his foot, he put two in his chest. I can see some mitigating circumstances.
As a guy who believes pretty strongly in gun rights, this is really testing my faith. I'm surprised at how much the racial issue has overshadowed the gun control issue here, because this is a better argument for gun control than anything I've seen in years. I can't see the NRA counter arguing that if Martin had a gun he would have survived.

Manslaughter and second degree murder are meaningless words unfortunately, since they mean something different in every state. Mine doesn't even have second degree murder. When I say manslaughter I just mean less than murder. That being said I think second degree murder usually means no premeditation, while manslaughter (among its other meanings) includes the "heat of passion." I.e., Z meant to kill M, but he was really, really angry and maybe a little out of it because his nose had been broken and his head slammed into the concrete.
post #1275 of 6250
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

If Z really did eventually overpower M and shoot him in a rage, that's manslaughter at least.

People keep bringing this up but I don't get it. Maybe I don't understand the manslaughter laws that well but I always thought they were for accidental killings only. If he did get Martin pinned down and shot him, how is that anything less than 2nd degree murder? It's not like he was aiming for his foot, he put two in his chest. I can see some mitigating circumstances.

As a guy who believes pretty strongly in gun rights, this is really testing my faith. I'm surprised at how much the racial issue has overshadowed the gun control issue here, because this is a better argument for gun control than anything I've seen in years. I can't see the NRA counter arguing that if Martin had a gun he would have survived.

As you know, I've said from the start, Z is a nightmare for folks that believe in gun ownership rights. The more I read of him I can't see how he had a CCW. Fighting with the cops? Restraining order (okay, they both filed them and it sounds bogus, but still on his record)? I can't see how he was issued a permit.

We talked about the "double tap" training and I think if that's part of his defense he's going to get into trouble. Why? The biggest part of training is usually of the "never confront, always disengage, attempt to flee, de-escalate" type talks. As I've said from the start Z was in the wrong when he started the confrontation. I'm sure that's not criminal but I think his complete disregard of all CCW training is going to hurt him if this goes to trial.
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