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Investment Banking Discussion Thread - Page 13

post #181 of 619
I've been avoiding the CFA because it's so many fucking hours to study for it that I could IMO better spend studying independently and networking.

I want to get an MBA from a top 5 school after getting work experience, not right now.

I currently have a full time job as an Engineer, no debt obligations and have a 10-month safety net saved up, so I'm thinking about putting some money towards flying out to NYC or SF to either set up in person meetings or attempting cold-visits. I'd do this after I have a significantly larger amount of knowledge about this stuff, obviously.
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TBH, I think it will be fairly difficult for your to break through given your description of "mediocre grades and school".

To somebody that is motivated it is a matter of "when" and not "if". icon_gu_b_slayer[1].gif

What's the quote? "Persistence plus effort equals success" or something like that?
post #182 of 619
I believe your underlying point mafoofan is gaining that necessary experience before an MBA, which I agree with. Last person I spoke to who is in finance worked 4 years and only now starting to apply to schools for an MBA. We sort of joked how typical that was at the time. I think that phase of quickly jumping into an MBA program post-bachelor degree was a short fad or just very minor occurrence.

Khay: You definitely have the right mindset, best of luck
post #183 of 619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post

I've been avoiding the CFA because it's so many fucking hours to study for it that I could IMO better spend studying independently and networking.
I want to get an MBA from a top 5 school after getting work experience, not right now.
I currently have a full time job as an Engineer, no debt obligations and have a 10-month safety net saved up, so I'm thinking about putting some money towards flying out to NYC or SF to either set up in person meetings or attempting cold-visits. I'd do this after I have a significantly larger amount of knowledge about this stuff, obviously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post

To somebody that is motivated it is a matter of "when" and not "if". icon_gu_b_slayer[1].gif
What's the quote? "Persistence plus effort equals success" or something like that?

Sure, persistence and initiative count, but they cannot overcome all odds. Putting your grades and school aside, I think you need to also consider that this is a very, very rough job market for investment bankers. For a variety of reasons, hiring is at a near standstill and analyst programs are getting smaller and smaller. Firms are laying off first year analysts right before bonus payouts and not giving out offers to summer interns. Goldman just shutdown their two-year analyst program (which they pioneered). Expect the other bulge brackets to follow suit.

In this kind of environment, banks can be exceedingly picky about who they hire (assuming they are hiring at all), and they also want to play it safe. Coming from a non-traditional background and outside the regular analyst recruitment path would be difficult hurdles to leap over under regular circumstances. These days, they may be unsurmountable. It's not you. It's the changing industry.

I don't mean to sound crushing, but I think you deserve a realistic account of how things are.
post #184 of 619
Quote:
Originally Posted by gettoasty View Post

I believe your underlying point mafoofan is gaining that necessary experience before an MBA, which I agree with. Last person I spoke to who is in finance worked 4 years and only now starting to apply to schools for an MBA. We sort of joked how typical that was at the time. I think that phase of quickly jumping into an MBA program post-bachelor degree was a short fad or just very minor occurrence.
Khay: You definitely have the right mindset, best of luck

I wasn't really referring to jumping to b-school straight out of college. My point was that, whereas before the financial crisis, you could get an associate-level banking gig out of a good business school, regardless of the sort of experience you had beforehand, today you pretty much need to have been an investment banking analyst first.

In other words, up until recently, you could have come from a number of work backgrounds before going to business school, and still switch into investment banking. Today, not so.
post #185 of 619
I had asked someone for some help in general fiance and thought it maybe helpful here. Since OP has an engineering and economics emphasis, perhaps IT/CS in finance will not be too difficult to pickup. I personally have considered this path instead of an MBA and/or certification.
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I am getting my master's in Operations Research right now. It's what financial engineering came from. I'm basically getting up to speed to be a quant since I missed out on that in undergrad..

Anyway, a few things. What city are you located in, and what school did you get your degree from? That matters so much right now with the job market being so rough. You at least have an internship to tide you over right now.. how long is it? And does it feed into full time positions at that company? Honestly, if it does, that is probably your best option right now because you've already got your foot in the door at a company.

Other than that, a CFA is awesome if that is something you are willing to pursue. It levels the playing field for everybody.. a person from some no name state university who has a CFA recognizably has the same skills as a person from Harvest who has a CFA. It is a very hard series of tests and definitely proves to employers that you have the skills needed for any asset management or financial analysis-intense position.

An MBA? MBAs are worthless in my opinion. I have taken MBA courses at 2 ivy league universities and they were no harder than my undergrad finance courses. They are basically for people who need to buy a network and not actually have to work very much. I loathe MBA programs if you can't tell.. they're a joke. There has been a lot of chatter in the media lately about MBA programs being phased out within 20 years, and a lot of employers stating that Operations Research degrees will replace the MBA because it is truly the place where technical meets practical.

Anyway, that got long winded pretty quickly, haha. I hope I answered your questions.. if I didn't, or if you have more questions about stuff, just pm me.
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Well, let's see. My first advice, if you want to definitely work in finance, would be to 1) go after your CFA, and 2) plan on going back to school but only if you can get into a top tier school. Also, I can't stress enough how much more valuable I believe a technical masters is over an MBA.

As far as what kind of career you would pursue given that you stay within the realm of finance and statistics.. there are numerous things. In finance, you would most likely be in asset management, whether it be working in private wealth management or higher level portfolio/fund management. You can also look at positions dealing with securities analysis/valuation. In statistics, you could pretty much look at statistical consulting jobs, or pretty much any job (in any industry) that requires analyzing large data sets and doing some inferential analysis of the data. That is in high demand right now, so if you have experience in data mining and/or statistical analysis I would suggest checking that out.

As for what resources I recommend.. Wall St Oasis is a decent forum to read. Glassdoor is also a great resource to see what companies are like from people who have interviewed there. As far as books go, it really depends on where your interests lie. That is such a vast category to make suggestions in, and personally because I always think hands on experience is the best teacher rather than books anyway, I have a hard time suggesting anything there for you. If you could be more specific about what you're looking to read I could tell you.

For now, if I were you, I would focus on this internship you have. Work your ass off, show them you add value to the company and that you're worth hiring. Hopefully you make it full time after the 3 month period, and if so, stay there for 2-3 years to get some good experience. Working at a company that small can provide some GREAT experience. Work toward your CFA while you're there, and if at some point you think it's necessary to go back to school to move up a tier in the workforce, look into it at that point. For now, like I said, I would only be focused on the internship and doing my best to make it into a full time position.

Hope this helps.

(just skimmed through it and realize it emphasizes the CFA as at the time it was on my interest as well) I am stressing the technical MBA part in combining computing/programing and statistics with finance.
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As far as well roundedness is concerned, programs that are hybrids between technical/business.. i.e., a program where you're taught technical skills and how to apply them in the business environment, are in my opinion the best route for post-graduate education nowadays. MBA's are actually not very well rounded as they see everything for the most part from a qualitative business perspective, and most (aside from those with engineering backgrounds) really lack the technical skills that most employers desire today and will desire even moreso in the future. Just food for thought

Hope it is helpful. Also this was back in 10/2011 so it may vary now since I think the field is quite dynamic.
post #186 of 619
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Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

I would consider the fact that these days it is near impossible to land an associate gig out of business school without previous analyst experience. Maybe that will change in a couple of years when the economy picks up and the investment banking world begins to make sense again, but who can say? As of the moment, I'd be very wary of pursuing an MBA in order to get into banking. This applies even to the top schools. Analyst programs everywhere are shrinking.

This differs from my experience at a BB in New York. The large majority of former analysts are analyst promotes.

About half the people come from related industries (capital markets, pwm, accounting firms) and the other half come from non-finance industries.
post #187 of 619
Quote:
Originally Posted by newinny View Post

This differs from my experience at a BB in New York. The large majority of former analysts are analyst promotes.
About half the people come from related industries (capital markets, pwm, accounting firms) and the other half come from non-finance industries.

Historically, this is true. Many existing associates, if not most, were never analysts. However, I'm talking about prospects for people coming out of business school today.
post #188 of 619
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Sounds super-boring though. If you want to go into a less risky profession with less chance of layoffs, go into law. Oh wait.

You'd be surprised... Lots of investigative work, crunchy details and real-life drama. I'm hearing this can be quite exciting. marchal.gif
post #189 of 619
lawyers are the worst. oh wait.
post #190 of 619
Those Wall St. Training courses are expensive. $500 for an Excel training video? Seriously?
post #191 of 619
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Originally Posted by gdl203 View Post

You'd be surprised... Lots of investigative work, crunchy details and real-life drama. I'm hearing this can be quite exciting. marchal.gif

Does the accuracy of this assessment directly scale with the quantity and quality of the female compliance officers you'd be working with?
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Originally Posted by AriGold View Post

lawyers are the worst. oh wait.

No, they really are.
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Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post

Those Wall St. Training courses are expensive. $500 for an Excel training video? Seriously?

Again, the point isn't only to learn concepts. It's so that you can say you took the course, which is broadly recognized by the people you hope to interview with. Also, the course is very helpful in teaching you how to actually build a model in Excel, which in turn gives you better, clearer insights into financial accounting. Also, you'll learn the most popular Excel shortcuts and get a taste for what analysts do for 16 hours a day.

Reading books does not do the same thing. Trust me. I've done it all.
post #192 of 619
so, before you second guess whether or not you should take the course KC, just think for a moment, WWMFFD?
post #193 of 619
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post


Does the accuracy of this assessment directly scale with the quantity and quality of the female compliance officers you'd be working with?
No, they really are.
Again, the point isn't only to learn concepts. It's so that you can say you took the course, which is broadly recognized by the people you hope to interview with. Also, the course is very helpful in teaching you how to actually build a model in Excel, which in turn gives you better, clearer insights into financial accounting. Also, you'll learn the most popular Excel shortcuts and get a taste for what analysts do for 16 hours a day.
Reading books does not do the same thing. Trust me. I've done it all.

 

No one gives a shit that you took a course online to learn how to build a model.

post #194 of 619
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Originally Posted by aspasp View Post

No one gives a shit that you took a course online to learn how to build a model.

TTS isn't online.

These are exactly the same instructors and material that new associates/analysts take for two weeks before starting.

Even KKR hires TTS for analysts.
post #195 of 619
Quote:
so, before you second guess whether or not you should take the course KC, just think for a moment, WWMFFD?

WWASPASPD?
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