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Formula 1 - F1 - Current Season Discussion - Page 117

post #1741 of 2329
Alonso trolling Honda:



Alonso and Button trolling Honda:

post #1742 of 2329
I really hope McLaren Honda can at least compete for podium spots next year. This is pathetic.
post #1743 of 2329
Thread Starter 
That was a boring race. Hamilton on the podium said it best. Can't get close, can't race. Why oh why can't we get ground effects back.
post #1744 of 2329
Gary Anderson suggests that even a bias toward downforce from the floor would still leave following cars in dirty air because the aero guys are better at extracting every bit of energy from the airflow these days. So, better, but not a panacea. The drivers are suggesting that the degradation characteristic of the tires is the real culprit because they get destroyed by the aero-induced sliding.
post #1745 of 2329
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarbutch View Post

Gary Anderson suggests that even a bias toward downforce from the floor would still leave following cars in dirty air because the aero guys are better at extracting every bit of energy from the airflow these days. So, better, but not a panacea. The drivers are suggesting that the degradation characteristic of the tires is the real culprit because they get destroyed by the aero-induced sliding.

In response, the quality of driving today is such that the degradation characteristics are mitigated by the driver's ability to extract the max from the tires. A tire that lasts longer would only shift the inevitable forward a few laps. A car sliding because of induced understeer will always degrade it's tires.

The aero effect on the wing in dirty air is way more damaging than the relatively calm compressed air cycling under the car. And we have evidence. Look at historical footage of ground effects cars, they were following closely more easily. Add a better tire compound and you've improved GP racing so that it's not competing with formula e anymore... though it still is with the sound characteristics.
post #1746 of 2329
The tires in Russia didn't degrade, they just wore out. Lap times were pretty consistent until the cords were showing. In that situation, the following car may lose time in a given corner, but it's not destroying any chance of maintaining a similar pace over the course of the stint. Using this past weekend's example, with more durable tires LH would have been able to stay within a second or so of NR until the stops, leaving the possibility running a faster in/out lap combo to get in front. Now, this is not my idea of great racing, but it at least gives a chance of a change of position up front.

You can't compare old-school ground effect to today. Relatively speaking, they had no idea what the hell they were doing back then, leaving lots of potential downforce on the table. These are Anderson's assertions, not mine. Certainly it would be better to have neutral or no wings, but it's not the cure-all you're suggesting.
post #1747 of 2329
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarbutch View Post

The tires in Russia didn't degrade, they just wore out. Lap times were pretty consistent until the cords were showing. In that situation, the following car may lose time in a given corner, but it's not destroying any chance of maintaining a similar pace over the course of the stint. Using this past weekend's example, with more durable tires LH would have been able to stay within a second or so of NR until the stops, leaving the possibility running a faster in/out lap combo to get in front. Now, this is not my idea of great racing, but it at least gives a chance of a change of position up front.

You can't compare old-school ground effect to today. Relatively speaking, they had no idea what the hell they were doing back then, leaving lots of potential downforce on the table. These are Anderson's assertions, not mine. Certainly it would be better to have neutral or no wings, but it's not the cure-all you're suggesting.

Lots of downforce was left on the table in the past, I agree. With that amount almost completely diminished, there's almost no leeway left. In the past, that gap in downforce was what enabled you to follow. Today, without that perfect airflow, you're 5-6% down which is 3 or 4 KM per corner, that across a lap, without tire slide, is probably over 1 second, an eternity in F1.

Not, that's not great racing. A battle over a few laps, fuck the tires or downforce, producing drama and maybe a pass, is. Intentionally sticking 2 seconds behind to hammer in a lap when the other guy pits and hope you get lucky is basically shit.

Fundamentally, simply changing positions is not great racing. The only event in Brazil worthy of real comment was Verstappen's pass into turn 1 around the outside. That was a pass, but it was so much more when you examine it.
post #1748 of 2329
post #1749 of 2329
Quote:
The ballsy efforts of Toro Rosso's Max Verstappen showcased how overtaking is possible around the Autodromo Carlos Pace, but the Dutchman (who twice went around the outside of rivals into the Senna S in a car that is not blessed with straightline speed) pointed out overtaking is a lot more likely when you're not driving an identical car to your rival.

"With the Mercedes, maybe they have more problems when they are closer to each other," he suggested. "Also their speed is higher, so maybe it's a bit more difficult for them.

"They are both on a very good pace, and I have to say when one of the Toro Rossos is behind the other it's very difficult to get past. Definitely if you have the same type of cars, it's very hard.

"For us, we have very good cornering speed, so if we are behind a Lotus or a Sauber or a Force India, we always catch up in the fast corners, even when we are behind. That's different for sure.

"For them, it's equal everywhere: The corners, the straights. Then if you are behind, you lose a lot in fast corners, so I can understand Lewis."
post #1750 of 2329
And something I hadn't put together:
Quote:
There is a theory that perhaps the new Pirelli tyre pressure limits, introduced from September's Italian GP, have affected Hamilton more than Rosberg.

Hamilton won from pole there, but since has failed to start from the top spot on the grid. Mercedes suffered a mysterious disaster at the next race in Singapore, where it couldn't get either the soft or super-soft tyre compounds working properly.

There have been no repeats since that race, but that turnaround in tyre operation has also coincided with Rosberg's current qualifying hot streak. Perhaps there is some technical aspect of the W06 now that is inadvertently favouring Rosberg over Hamilton?

"From Singapore onwards there has been a change to the car, but whether or not that's made a difference I don't know really," said Hamilton. "We'll have to see. But it has changed since Singapore."
post #1751 of 2329
Aw poor 3x wdc can't pass with impunity. Seriously, if the championship was still open he'd find a way. But at this point of the season why would the team let him? They have nothing to gain especially if it keeps their 2nd driver happy enough to be mostly effective for another year. Too bad Nico wasn't driving like this earlier in the season. F1's loss. I guess....
post #1752 of 2329
Just finished watching the race and realized that most of the excitement in watching F1 was in the anticipation of the championship and with that settled the racing is actually really boring. I had to watch the race at 1.5x speed since it was obvious there would be no passing and I couldn't bare watching the cars going around in single file at normal playback speed.
post #1753 of 2329
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarbutch View Post

And something I hadn't put together:

Quite interesting. It reminds me of how affected Webber was vs Vettel when the new Pirelli tire was introduced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post

Just finished watching the race and realized that most of the excitement in watching F1 was in the anticipation of the championship and with that settled the racing is actually really boring. I had to watch the race at 1.5x speed since it was obvious there would be no passing and I couldn't bare watching the cars going around in single file at normal playback speed.

I don't pay too much attention to the championship, actually. Unless of course it's very close which most years it's not. If a guy starts to look inevitable I unplug from the WDC.

That race in Brazil has a case for being the most boring race of the entire season. Sochi the most generally awful.

A convergence of factors make this season a forget-fest. Macca slow, Renault engine. No Merc customer can get close to the factory team.

The seasons that have the most parallels are Macca in 88 and the 2002 Ferrari.

The 2002 Ferrari season was total shit. Schumacher's #1 status made it worthless as a competition, and the races were dominated by huge margins.

The 88 season, which dominant, was very compelling. There was a lot of drama, and the cars were exciting to watch.

You can have dominance and excitement, but these 2015 cars are so awful to watch and listen to, it's just not compelling.
post #1754 of 2329
post #1755 of 2329
Thread Starter 
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