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Mr. Ned vs. Brooklyn Tailors - Page 4

post #46 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonneker View Post

Stop confusing the OP. You have said in this thread that BT is hardly custom/bespoke and that is what the OP's after. confused.gif

I know too much about both companies public and private practices and I'm too close to both the owners to comment I suppose.

The definition of a custom suit is perhaps more nebulous than MTM or Bespoke. How would you define MTM, Custom and Bespoke personally?
post #47 of 73
If you look at the history of tailoring it was change change change. Only old men didn't keep up. This personal style, which really is your personal fashion is recent history; It started in the 1980s. If you look at pictures from the early 60s how many didn't have narrow lapels, high water trouser that were also narrow and the list goes on and on. This personal style is in itself a fad. All of these stupid rules on these forums is only a fashion that some people want to believe today. Medium width lapels and medium this and medium that and what ever else is preached here is only temporary because eventually people get tired of seeing the same old same old. I believe some of those who have been on these forums the longest are already starting to move on to other clothing ideas. Tailoring is an art and good art is not stagnant. If Mr. Ned can't keep up with future history then he is not a very good tailor. The old tailors were trained how to step into the future fashions, which they most times welcomed and needed so people kept coming to them to buy new clothes. One of the reasons for the decline of tailors is that people are wearing their clothes so long instead of buying new sooner. One of the reasons for fashions is enjoyment and not disdain. Old tailors were taught that middle age mens fashions are different that young mens fashions as are teen fashions are different from that. Generally middle age men don't want to be around the younger generations as the younger don't care to be around the older so some of the bigger tailoring firms had different locations for each or different doors. Some of the tailors that worked for a big firm that was divided up kinda forgot the other tailoring needs. The tailors of the smaller firms made for all. Mr. Ned should be able to take your fashion wants and make it fine, there are some details he might not be able to do, such as when drape was in fashion. There were many types of drape and no tailor could know them all. But in general he should know the basics and at the fitting fine tune your desires. Those of you who are embarrassed of what you wore in the past have forgotten that they were based on reasons, just as what you wear today is based upon reasons, if the reasons change again will you wrongly be embarrassed again? Clothes are to be enjoyed and if the tailor makes your enjoyment no fun then find a better tailor. And tailors that have a good eye pay attention to them, but he will keep your fashions fun. And yes, what people push here is nothing more than a fashion, and they dumbly think they'er not pushing a fashion.
post #48 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Reeves View Post

I know too much about both companies public and private practices and I'm too close to both the owners to comment I suppose.
The definition of a custom suit is perhaps more nebulous than MTM or Bespoke. How would you define MTM, Custom and Bespoke personally?

Sure thing: I think you will find that the general consensus here is that "custom" is the US version of "bespoke". Needless to say, MTM is an entirely different animal.
post #49 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonneker View Post

Sure thing: I think you will find that the general consensus here is that "custom" is the US version of "bespoke". Needless to say, MTM is an entirely different animal.

I wouldn't agree with that consensus. I think that any thing made especially to your specific requirements counts as custom-made, so long as you get to choose among different options for its shape and materials. So standard no-fittings MTM counts as custom-made. But that's a long way from bespoke.

I agree that non-MTM Made to Order, where generally all you get to do is choose among generic sizes, and then choose different materials and finishings, probably should be distinguished from true custom work. It's sort of in a gray area between custom and ready-made.
post #50 of 73
You do a fitting with MTM though although its like a final fitting. Usually you need to take in the side seams a touch or shorten/lengthen a sleeve. Theres not people out there that just hand a guy a suit even an MTM and just walk away is there?
post #51 of 73
I see what you mean, but I wouldn't call that a fitting: I'd call it an alteration. The garment is fully made. At that stage, you're altering the garment, not making it. I think of fittings as done while the garment is being made.

I can see why one might call it a fitting, though. Maybe I should have said "in-make fittings," or some such.
post #52 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post

I wouldn't agree with that consensus. I think that any thing made especially to your specific requirements counts as custom-made, so long as you get to choose among different options for its shape and materials. So standard no-fittings MTM counts as custom-made. But that's a long way from bespoke.
I agree that non-MTM Made to Order, where generally all you get to do is choose among generic sizes, and then choose different materials and finishings, probably should be distinguished from true custom work. It's sort of in a gray area between custom and ready-made.

The word bespoke means custom. It is funny how the Britts end up with the word bespoke. MTM gives a few choices, like coats on the rack at the store, so it is far from custom. Customize describes mtm better. So, if mtm goes through the same line with rtw, then it is far from custom/bespoke tailored garment.

If a person moves to another country then he/she should learn to speak the language of the country he/she is living in. To continually misusing words, such as custom for mtm when instead it is bespoke is pure foolish. If not in England then don't speak like the Britts.
post #53 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by greger View Post

If a person moves to another country then he/she should learn to speak the language of the country he/she is living in. To continually misusing words, such as custom for mtm when instead it is bespoke is pure foolish. If not in England then don't speak like the Britts.

Sig-worthy.
Hispanics in the Estados Unidos, take note.
post #54 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post

I wouldn't agree with that consensus. I think that any thing made especially to your specific requirements counts as custom-made, so long as you get to choose among different options for its shape and materials. So standard no-fittings MTM counts as custom-made. But that's a long way from bespoke.
....

I appreciate your view, but I think you will find that this topic has been debated here extensively. One of the key aspects that people tend to agree on is that bespoke requires making a unique pattern. And that's the same for custom of course, see below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greger View Post

The word bespoke means custom. ...

+1
post #55 of 73
There are only two Brooklyn tailors (not "Tailors") worth considering: Martin Greenfield and Frank Ercole.

Greenfield is MTM, but if you are REALLY nice and a repeat customer, his MTM is "semi-bespoke" (not real bespoke but far more than MTM).
Ercole is bespoke.

"Brooklyn Tailors" may be in Brooklyn, but they aren't even tailors.
post #56 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by greger View Post

The word bespoke means custom. It is funny how the Britts end up with the word bespoke. MTM gives a few choices, like coats on the rack at the store, so it is far from custom. Customize describes mtm better. So, if mtm goes through the same line with rtw, then it is far from custom/bespoke tailored garment.
If a person moves to another country then he/she should learn to speak the language of the country he/she is living in. To continually misusing words, such as custom for mtm when instead it is bespoke is pure foolish. If not in England then don't speak like the Britts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gopherblue View Post

There are only two Brooklyn tailors (not "Tailors") worth considering: Martin Greenfield and Frank Ercole.
Greenfield is MTM, but if you are REALLY nice and a repeat customer, his MTM is "semi-bespoke" (not real bespoke but far more than MTM).
Ercole is bespoke.
"Brooklyn Tailors" may be in Brooklyn, but they aren't even tailors.

I think people here get to hung up over that label. To the guy on the street its just easier to say thats what you do and its more humble than saying "fashion designer". Usually conversations go like:

Person at party: so what do you do?

Designer: Im a menswear designer.

Person at party:

oh like t shirts?

Designer:

suits mainly.

so your a tailor?

Designer:

I employ tailors and I do the design, deal with clients and do fittings select cloths and materials.

Person at party:

So your company makes suits

Designer:

Yes.

Person at Party:

So your a tailor.

Alternatively it goes:

Person at party:

what do you do?

Designer: Im a tailor

Person at party:

Thats cool I need a good tailor

Designer:

Really!?

Person at party:

Yes I need some Jeans hemmed actually.

By the way Martins factory makes good suits but he is not a tailor ie he cant and has never sat down and made a suit for anybody. That doesn't mean he doesn't know a lot about them. Older guys get free passes though.

I keep hearing good things about Ercole, his son went to England and trained I believe.
post #57 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Reeves View Post

I think people here get to hung up over that label. .

The custom tailors of America, when there were thousands of tailors here, took the mtm groups to court for using custom instead of customized and won.
In Jolly Old England the bespoke tailors had a similar problem but lost.
Their was prized word bespoke that separated them from everybody else in the clothing business is legally meaningless in England now. And that is not a good thing.
It important to use words to separate this from that, otherwise the words have no real meaning, so no purpose. And it also helps prevents fraud. "Labels do matter".

Using word in their proper place prevents confusion. Destroying the proper place of words, by changing their meaning, destroys the purpose of words, does it not?
post #58 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by greger View Post

The word bespoke means custom..

Says who?

The American Heritage College Dictionary (1997) gives the first sense of "bespoke" as "ordered in advance." The first adjectival sense of "custom" is "made to order."
The Concise Oxford English Dictionary (2004) gives the first sense of "bespoke" as "made to order." "Custom" as an adjective is not defined, but "custom-built" is defined as "made to a particular customer's order."

So, according to ordinary US and Britsh usage, you're right, "bespoke" roughly means "custom." But ordinary usage in both countries also says that non-MTM MTO counts as bespoke. But since you deny that regular MTM or MTO counts as custom, this doesn't help your position. In fact, it helps mine a lot more than yours. I said that custom is the genus of which bespoke, semi-bespoke, and MTM are species, with MTO a fuzzy case. So I agree with ordinary usage about the definition of "custom." I just disagree about the definition of "bespoke."

So if anyone in this debate is abusing ordinary language, it's not me.

Are you instead using "custom" and "bespoke" as technical terms, so that "bespoke" requires a from-scratch pattern and several fittings? In that case, what's fair to say is that some experts in the US use "custom" as a synonym for "bespoke" and others don't.

There is a good reason for distinguishing between the technical senses of "bespoke" and "custom." It's useful to have a word that captures all of bespoke, semi-bespoke, and regular MTM. "Custom" is the most natural word to use for that, given the dictionary definitions, and that Savile Row is the world's acknowledged center of tailoring and they have for hundreds of years used "bespoke" but not "custom" to refer to from-scratch pattern with several fittings.
post #59 of 73
David, why not just reply: "I make bespoke suits"?
post #60 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by greger View Post

It important to use words to separate this from that, otherwise the words have no real meaning, so no purpose. And it also helps prevents fraud. "Labels do matter".

I agree. That is why I was trying to distinguish between "bespoke" and "custom."
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