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post #901 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMRouse View Post

The problem with this is it seems many people still want to be able to pick and choose parts of the Old Testament they feel should be followed based on what amounts to arbitrary reasons.

Christ seemed pretty clear to me, all of the laws of the Old Testament should be followed. But he's right, I am probably misinterpreting it. Not that it's a big deal, everyone seems to misinterpret the Bible, including biblical scholars wink.gif
post #902 of 5454
Everybody that misquotes Leviticus and Deuteronomy just doesn't really understand.

This is going to sound heretical to orthodox Jews but this idea is pretty fundamental to Christianity or at least understanding it.

I'll give you three examples/arguments why Christians don't follow things like Jewish dietary laws.

One time Christ healed an ill person (I think lame) on the sabbath. The Pharisees challenged him saying he committed a sin by doing this on the sabbath (although stitches tells me Jewish doctors are allowed to work in emergencies on the sabbath). Christ responded by pointing out David and his men picked grains on the sabbath and took sacrificial bread from the temple. Then he calls himself the lord of the sabbath. This doesn't mean christ ignores the law or disobeys it. On the contrary Christ follows the intent of the law and in doing so fulfills it.

Second. You know that verse you quoted at me? The one in Matthews where Christ says not iota will be stricken from the law? Just before that is the whole turn your other cheek stuff. The Pentateuch mentions divorce and Christ pointed out that although Moses said divorce is ok anyone who marries another while their spouse is living commits adultery. He goes on giving similar examples of how while you are expected to do certain things or are legally required to do only certain things you should go far beyond that. In other words Mosaic law is simply not enough. In fact the extent to which you should follow the law is unbelievably extreme unable to be fulfilled by humans. He says if your left hand causes you to sin to cut it out. He tells you to forgive your brother seventy times seven times not just seven. Then he says not one iota will be stricken from the law. How is that possible? Because Christ tells you to do more than the law. If the law says eye for an eye you give another eye for the eye that was taken. But how can anybody follow the difficult commands that Christ gives? Nobody can because as naturally sinful beings we cant always fulfill even the basic requirements of the law and that's where Christ comes in. Consume Christ, believe in Christ and all will be given to you and more. Whatever is impossible with man is possible with god. Have faith as small as a mustard seed and you can move mountains. If God is perfect any one single imperfection ever is enough to prevent unity with him (aka heaven a place where you are united with him fully and eternally)

Shoot accidentally hit send and am watching the finals will get back to this.

Third. In Romans Paul tells us that the mosaic law while not bad in itself was bad for mankind because mankind could not fully fulfill the minimum requirement of godness (holyness, righteousness that we were created to do as images of god) which was codified by the law. In fact where the law appeared transgression of the law increased. In other words while the law is full and right and good it is incomplete because as beings sinful by nature we cannot fulfill all of it always because we simply dont want to. So we need a substitution, a propitiary sacrifice, something that will fulfill that requirement for us and that is Christ. By believing in christ your sinful nature is replaced and you begin to desire Christlike things.

Read Hebrews 8. The author of Hebrews talks about Christ as the new covenant.

Your objection is literally as old as Christianity. In the early church there was huge dispute between gentile Christians and jewish Christians. Jewish Christians believed all Christians had to be circumcised as prescribed in the old testament. Gentiles didnt and it caused a big division in the early churches. This is fully addressed by Paul in Romans where he says circumcision was originally meant as a sign of faith in god by Abraham. But just like Abraham had faith that was credited to him as righteousness before he had circumcision, circumcision is not a prerequisite for faith and faith/salvation exists outside of circumcision. In other words the mosaic law and its rigid requirements are a sign of faith in god, of existence in god, not the cause of it.

Basically why Christians don't follow he passover or eat kosher (or at least my understanding of it)

Honestly speaking I don't know much. I'm a bad Christian as evidenced by my words on this forum. But pretty much everything most people like you have though of as objections to Christianity I've thought of myself. I had a big crisis of faith whee I doubted absolutely everything in high school and college and eventually I decided Christianity made more sense.



/end heretical zealot rant.

I don't think anybody will make it this far.
Edited by indesertum - 6/14/12 at 8:43pm
post #903 of 5454
I don't think anybody will make it this far.
[/quote]

Is there a movie adaptation of what you just said I can watch to avoid reading it?
post #904 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Everybody that misquotes Leviticus and Deuteronomy just doesn't really understand.
This is going to sound heretical to orthodox Jews but this idea is pretty fundamental to Christianity or at least understanding it.
I'll give you three examples/arguments why Christians don't follow things like Jewish dietary laws.
One time Christ healed an ill person (I think lame) on the sabbath. The Pharisees challenged him saying he committed a sin by doing this on the sabbath (although stitches tells me Jewish doctors are allowed to work in emergencies on the sabbath). Christ responded by pointing out David and his men picked grains on the sabbath and took sacrificial bread from the temple. Then he calls himself the lord of the sabbath. This doesn't mean christ ignores the law or disobeys it. On the contrary Christ follows the intent of the law and in doing so fulfills it.
Second. You know that verse you quoted at me? The one in Matthews where Christ says not iota will be stricken from the law? Just before that is the whole turn your other cheek stuff. The Pentateuch mentions divorce and Christ pointed out that although Moses said divorce is ok anyone who marries another while their spouse is living commits adultery. He goes on giving similar examples of how while you are expected to do certain things or are legally required to do only certain things you should go far beyond that. In other words Mosaic law is simply not enough. In fact the extent to which you should follow the law is unbelievably extreme unable to be fulfilled by humans. He says if your left hand causes you to sin to cut it out. He tells you to forgive your brother seventy times seven times not just seven. Then he says not one iota will be stricken from the law. How is that possible? Because Christ tells you to do more than the law. If the law says eye for an eye you give another eye for the eye that was taken. But how can anybody follow the difficult commands that Christ gives? Nobody can because as naturally sinful beings we cant always fulfill even the basic requirements of the law and that's where Christ comes in. Consume Christ, believe in Christ and all will be given to you and more. Whatever is impossible with man is possible with god. Have faith as small as a mustard seed and you can move mountains. If God is perfect any one single imperfection ever is enough to prevent unity with him (aka heaven a place where you are united with him fully and eternally)
Shoot accidentally hit send and am watching the finals will get back to this.
Third. In Romans Paul tells us that the mosaic law while not bad in itself was bad for mankind because mankind could not fully fulfill the minimum requirement of godness (holyness, righteousness that we were created to do as images of god) which was codified by the law. In fact where the law appeared transgression of the law increased. In other words while the law is full and right and good it is incomplete because as beings sinful by nature we cannot fulfill all of it always because we simply dont want to. So we need a substitution, a propitiary sacrifice, something that will fulfill that requirement for us and that is Christ. By believing in christ your sinful nature is replaced and you begin to desire Christlike things.
Read Hebrews 8. The author of Hebrews talks about Christ as the new covenant.
Your objection is literally as old as Christianity. In the early church there was huge dispute between gentile Christians and jewish Christians. Jewish Christians believed all Christians had to be circumcised as prescribed in the old testament. Gentiles didnt and it caused a big division in the early churches. This is fully addressed by Paul in Romans where he says circumcision was originally meant as a sign of faith in god by Abraham. But just like Abraham had faith that was credited to him as righteousness before he had circumcision, circumcision is not a prerequisite for faith and faith/salvation exists outside of circumcision. In other words the mosaic law and its rigid requirements are a sign of faith in god, of existence in god, not the cause of it.
Basically why Christians don't follow he passover or eat kosher (or at least my understanding of it)
Honestly speaking I don't know much. I'm a bad Christian as evidenced by my words on this forum. But pretty much everything most people like you have though of as objections to Christianity I've thought of myself. I had a big crisis of faith whee I doubted absolutely everything in high school and college and eventually I decided Christianity made more sense.
/end heretical zealot rant.
I don't think anybody will make it this far.

More mealy mouthed apologist horseshit.
post #905 of 5454
Eh, I don't feel like arguing this anymore, my heart's just not in it. I guess since even though I'm an Atheist and love messing with Christians, really, from a historical perspective IMO Christianity has been great for humanity overall.

I'd much rather be an Atheist dealing with Christians than an Atheist dealing with a bunch of pagans worshiping sun gods and claps of thunder and shit.
post #906 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by javyn View Post

Eh, I don't feel like arguing this anymore, my heart's just not in it. I guess since even though I'm an Atheist and love messing with Christians, really, from a historical perspective IMO Christianity has been great for humanity overall.
I'd much rather be an Atheist dealing with Christians than an Atheist dealing with a bunch of pagans worshiping sun gods and claps of thunder and shit.

Same diff.
post #907 of 5454
Nah, not at all.
post #908 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

Everybody that misquotes Leviticus and Deuteronomy just doesn't really understand.
This is going to sound heretical to orthodox Jews but this idea is pretty fundamental to Christianity or at least understanding it.
I'll give you three examples/arguments why Christians don't follow things like Jewish dietary laws. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
One time Christ healed an ill person (I think lame) on the sabbath. The Pharisees challenged him saying he committed a sin by doing this on the sabbath (although stitches tells me Jewish doctors are allowed to work in emergencies on the sabbath). Christ responded by pointing out David and his men picked grains on the sabbath and took sacrificial bread from the temple. Then he calls himself the lord of the sabbath. This doesn't mean christ ignores the law or disobeys it. On the contrary Christ follows the intent of the law and in doing so fulfills it.
Second. You know that verse you quoted at me? The one in Matthews where Christ says not iota will be stricken from the law? Just before that is the whole turn your other cheek stuff. The Pentateuch mentions divorce and Christ pointed out that although Moses said divorce is ok anyone who marries another while their spouse is living commits adultery. He goes on giving similar examples of how while you are expected to do certain things or are legally required to do only certain things you should go far beyond that. In other words Mosaic law is simply not enough. In fact the extent to which you should follow the law is unbelievably extreme unable to be fulfilled by humans. He says if your left hand causes you to sin to cut it out. He tells you to forgive your brother seventy times seven times not just seven. Then he says not one iota will be stricken from the law. How is that possible? Because Christ tells you to do more than the law. If the law says eye for an eye you give another eye for the eye that was taken. But how can anybody follow the difficult commands that Christ gives? Nobody can because as naturally sinful beings we cant always fulfill even the basic requirements of the law and that's where Christ comes in. Consume Christ, believe in Christ and all will be given to you and more. Whatever is impossible with man is possible with god. Have faith as small as a mustard seed and you can move mountains. If God is perfect any one single imperfection ever is enough to prevent unity with him (aka heaven a place where you are united with him fully and eternally)
Shoot accidentally hit send and am watching the finals will get back to this.
Third. In Romans Paul tells us that the mosaic law while not bad in itself was bad for mankind because mankind could not fully fulfill the minimum requirement of godness (holyness, righteousness that we were created to do as images of god) which was codified by the law. In fact where the law appeared transgression of the law increased. In other words while the law is full and right and good it is incomplete because as beings sinful by nature we cannot fulfill all of it always because we simply dont want to. So we need a substitution, a propitiary sacrifice, something that will fulfill that requirement for us and that is Christ. By believing in christ your sinful nature is replaced and you begin to desire Christlike things.
Read Hebrews 8. The author of Hebrews talks about Christ as the new covenant.
Your objection is literally as old as Christianity. In the early church there was huge dispute between gentile Christians and jewish Christians. Jewish Christians believed all Christians had to be circumcised as prescribed in the old testament. Gentiles didnt and it caused a big division in the early churches. This is fully addressed by Paul in Romans where he says circumcision was originally meant as a sign of faith in god by Abraham. But just like Abraham had faith that was credited to him as righteousness before he had circumcision, circumcision is not a prerequisite for faith and faith/salvation exists outside of circumcision. In other words the mosaic law and its rigid requirements are a sign of faith in god, of existence in god, not the cause of it.
Basically why Christians don't follow he passover or eat kosher (or at least my understanding of it)
Honestly speaking I don't know much. I'm a bad Christian as evidenced by my words on this forum. But pretty much everything most people like you have though of as objections to Christianity I've thought of myself. I had a big crisis of faith whee I doubted absolutely everything in high school and college and eventually I decided Christianity made more sense.
/end heretical zealot rant.
I don't think anybody will make it this far.

You would enjoy Daniel Boyarin's The Jewish Gospels, which discusses in detail the Sabbath/David/Lord of the Sabbath story and places it in contemporaneous context. The book argues that even high Christology fit in with certain heterodox strains of Jewish thought extant at the time and that the early Church did not really represent a break from Judaism. It is a good read. The introduction by Jack Miles is also pretty interesting.

Here is a fun review of a critical review.
post #909 of 5454
Thanks dopey. I'll give it a read.
post #910 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by javyn View Post

I'd much rather be an Atheist dealing with Christians than an Atheist dealing with a bunch of pagans worshiping sun gods and claps of thunder and shit.

If we are talking about post-Enlightenment Christians, sure. I don't exactly give Christianity credit for that, though. If we are talking about Christians in the era of the Inquisition and the Crusades, I would take my chances with the pagans.
post #911 of 5454
400
post #912 of 5454
245
post #913 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Humphrey Appleby View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
400

This is funny.
post #914 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post

If we are talking about post-Enlightenment Christians, sure. I don't exactly give Christianity credit for that, though. If we are talking about Christians in the era of the Inquisition and the Crusades, I would take my chances with the pagans.

I think you'd be dead either way heh. IMO religion itself has been evolving since the beginning of civilization, and Christianity is the most evolved. Whether it's due to its credit, not, or whatever, doesn't really matter to me.

I guess if I'd credit anyone, it would be the Greeks who began the trend by giving their Gods human qualities, thus making them fallible, and eventually encouraging them to conquer nature (the gods), rather than cower and bow to them.

Then fast forward to Christianity, where the God had a human son. At this rate, pretty soon we'll be realizing God = us.
post #915 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by javyn View Post

I think you'd be dead either way heh. IMO religion itself has been evolving since the beginning of civilization, and Christianity is the most evolved. Whether it's due to its credit, not, or whatever, doesn't really matter to me.
I guess if I'd credit anyone, it would be the Greeks who began the trend by giving their Gods human qualities, thus making them fallible, and eventually encouraging them to conquer nature (the gods), rather than cower and bow to them.
Then fast forward to Christianity, where the God had a human son. At this rate, pretty soon we'll be realizing God = us.

Plenty of gods had human sons.
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