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Stupid political crap your friends post on facebook. - Page 33

post #481 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by why View Post

Switzerland's system has problems. It just seems nicer because everyone makes more money and there are fewer strains on the system (illegal immigrants, etc.). It doesn't seem substantially different from the US system in structure.
For example, from what I've seen people can be refused from receiving care in Switzerland.

Let's call a spade a spade... as Piob and I and others have pointed out a number of times, demographic smallness and homogeneity are key factors in the success of a number of social programs around the world (Singapore, anyone?) - because people's sense of "fairness" tends to be different when they identify with the other parties involved.
post #482 of 5454
the swiss have a mix of systems somewhere in between beveridge and bismarck. the gov't doesn't run everything like beveridge and employees and employers dont split costs like bismarck.

there's a cap on how much premiums you can pay based as a % of your income. above that the gov't pays. everybody is required to pay for basic health insurance like car insurance etc, but insurance companies are not allowed to make a profit on the basic package (they make money off of additional insurance like dental or better coverage plans)


their health care is cheap because insurance companies are not allowed to make a lot of profit. something like that will never pass in the states with how much political clout health insurance companies have.


otoh if you mandate that employees and employers split costs and mandate that everybody has health insurance, you're basically raising a health care tax (gov't forcing you to pay money for a public good) without calling it a tax. something republicans and democrats can both get behind

the money saving will come from unifying the systems so we can have basically what we have today with less money going in the system. hospitals and private clinics won't have to hire office people just to file claims and to know how much to charge each company. there won't be stupid collusion agreements where certain hospitals only accept certain insurance because of a pre-made agreement.


also make GPOs (group purchasing organizations that purchase medical supplies for hospitals) not exempt from medicare kickback laws (GPOs can get kickbacks from the manufacturers and suppliers they buy from whose supplies they then sell to hospitals).
post #483 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoRon View Post

Let's call a spade a spade... as Piob and I and others have pointed out a number of times, demographic smallness and homogeneity are key factors in the success of a number of social programs around the world (Singapore, anyone?) - because people's sense of "fairness" tends to be different when they identify with the other parties involved.

Or, to put it another way, white taxpayers in the U.S. don't feel like paying for non-white folks' needs. Not health care, not schoolchildren, not you-name-it. It's an ugly truth, but to paraphrase H. Rap Brown, "it's as American as cherry pie."
post #484 of 5454
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats View Post

Or, to put it another way, white taxpayers in the U.S. don't feel like paying for non-white folks' needs. Not health care, not schoolchildren, not you-name-it. It's an ugly truth, but to paraphrase H. Rap Brown, "it's as American as cherry pie."

Yes, the monolithic non-whites vs. the monolithic whites. That sums it all up perfectly.
post #485 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordecai View Post

Yes, the monolithic non-whites vs. the monolithic whites. That sums it all up perfectly.
That's a bit simplistic.
post #486 of 5454
350
post #487 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoRon View Post

Let's call a spade a spade... as Piob and I and others have pointed out a number of times, demographic smallness and homogeneity are key factors in the success of a number of social programs around the world (Singapore, anyone?) - because people's sense of "fairness" tends to be different when they identify with the other parties involved.

Is Singapore supposed to be homogeneous? Switzerland?
post #488 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Is Singapore supposed to be homogeneous? Switzerland?

Not sure which facts you are disputing.... (I was thinking sweden when I said switzerland, but small is still appropriate, and significantly less diverse than the USA)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Singapore
Quote:
While the Singapore Department of Statistics reports overall population figures for Singapore (4.48 million in 2006), as a matter of policy, it only provides more detailed demographic breakdown analysis for the approximately 80% of the population who are Singapore citizens and Permanent Residents (collectively termed 'residents'). Of this group of about 3.6 million people, Chinese form 75.2%, Malays form 13.6%, Indians form 8.8%, while Eurasians and other groups form 2.4%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Switzerland#Nationality
Quote:
The number of registered resident foreigners was 1,001,887 (16.17%) in 1970. This amount decreased to 904,337 (14.34%) in 1979, and has increased steadily since that time, passing the 20% mark during 2001 and rising to 1,524,663 (20.56%) in 2004. The number of Swiss citizens thus numbered about 5.9 million in that year.

In 2007, 1.45 million resident foreigners (85.4%, or 19.1% of the total population[12]), had European citizenship (Italian: 295,507; German: 224,324; citizens of Serbia and Montenegro: 196,078; Portuguese: 193,299; French: 83,129; Turkish: 75,382; Spanish: 66,519, Macedonian: 60,509; Bosnian: 41,654; Croatian: 38,144; Austrian: 36,155; British: 32,207). ; 109,113 residents were from Asia; 69,010 from the Americas; 66,599 from Africa; and 3,777 from Oceania.[13]

In 2004, 35,700 people acquired Swiss citizenship according to Swiss nationality law, a figure slightly larger than that of the previous year (35,424), and four times larger than the 1990 figure (8,658). About a third of those naturalized are from a successor state of Former Yugoslavia: 7,900 Serbia-Montenegro, 2,400 Bosnia-Herzegowina, 2,000 Macedonia, 1,600 Croatia. 4,200 were from Italy, 3,600 from Turkey, 1,600 from Sri Lanka, 1,200 from Portugal, and 1,200 from France.[14]

The yearly rate of naturalization has quintupled over the 1990s and 2000s, from roughly 9,000 to 45,000. Relative to the population of resident foreigners, this amounts to an increase from 8‰ in 1990 to 27‰ in 2007, or relative to the number of Swiss citizens from 1.6‰ in 1990 to 7.3‰ in 2007. The following table shows the historical development of the rate of naturalization.[15]

In 2000, 5.78 million residents (79.2%, compared to 93.8% in 1980) were Christian (Roman Catholic 41.8%, Protestant 35.3%, Orthodox 1.8%). 809,800 (11.1%, compared to 3.8% in 1980) were without any religious affiliation. 310,800 (4.3%) were Muslim (compared to 0.9% in 1980), 17,900 (0.2%) were Jewish. These numbers are based on membership in a congregation, not on direct statements of belief. The 2005 Eurobarometer poll[16] found 48% of Swiss residents to be theist, 39% expressing belief in "some sort of spirit or life force", 9% atheist and 4 % said that they "don't know".
post #489 of 5454
Switzerland's entire history revolves around its lack of homogeneity. They're French, German, and Italian, remember?

And Singapore is a Chinese city that was carved out of Malaysia, but with significant Malay and Indian minorities, not to mention the tremendous number of foreign residents.

I just don't see either of them as being good examples of homogeneous countries. There are definitely better ones out there.
post #490 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Switzerland's entire history revolves around its lack of homogeneity. They're French, German, and Italian, remember?

With hundreds of years of nearly essential isolation from the effects of European politics, the Swiss may be multinational in ethnic heritage but they're pretty much just one nation at this point. Compare Switzerland to a country like Belgium.
post #491 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Is Singapore supposed to be homogeneous? Switzerland?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Switzerland's entire history revolves around its lack of homogeneity. They're French, German, and Italian, remember?
And Singapore is a Chinese city that was carved out of Malaysia, but with significant Malay and Indian minorities, not to mention the tremendous number of foreign residents.
I just don't see either of them as being good examples of homogeneous countries. There are definitely better ones out there.

I can only speak to my experience in Singapore, but it is far from homogenous. A quarter of the country's residents were born overseas and then you have a huge and constantly changing guest worker programme. It is not completely heterogeneous society, but also not a good example of homogeneity.

What stands out for me in countries like Singapore, Japan (and I assume Switzerland) is that they do not 'celebrate diversity' and individualism. There are multicultural states that place a high value on conformity, respect for authority and public service.
post #492 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by why View Post

With hundreds of years of nearly essential isolation from the effects of European politics, the Swiss may be multinational in ethnic heritage but they're pretty much just one nation at this point. Compare Switzerland to a country like Belgium.

I wouldn't say that. Politics in Switzerland are even more diverse than in the USA, with full-on socialists (SDP) serving right next to right-wing religious (SVP) and libertarian (FDP), and actually getting things done. The Swiss Federal Council, their version of the executive branch, is currently populated by 7 people representing 4 parties. The key, IMHO, is that Switzerland maintains a high-level of authority within the 26 cantons (and the municipalities therein) while very little direct power is granted to the Swiss federal government. Distributing power amongst the greatest number of entities is the best way to ensure progress and minimize corruption, and Switzerland has one of the most effective governments at doing this. If anything, I'd suggest that the cultural diversity of Switzerland's heritage is what helps minimize a federal power grab there.

Frankly, Switzerland is the closest thing to what I would imagine Messrs. Washington, Adams, Jefferson, et al, wanted the USA to be.
post #493 of 5454
Less intelligent talk, more stupid memes plz
post #494 of 5454
Just to be clear, nobody is disputing the size piece, right? And - if you don't think a country with an 80% majority of anything (Religion in one and Chinese Ethnicity in the other) is homogenous relative to the US, so be it... but I think that has an impact.
post #495 of 5454
80% majority of one religion is not grounds for homogeneity

it helps but everybody is of different ethnicity and language = not homogenous
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