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Stupid political crap your friends post on facebook. - Page 286

post #4276 of 5454
If any one is interested in knowing the particulars of how a system wherein all the decisions ,short of the distribution of profits, are made by the workers ( hourly employees ) works I would be glad Inform you . I have participated in such a system for over 30 years and I assure you it works very well . As a matter of fact I recently received a mailing informing any retirees that they were free to return to work if they wished to do so due to an extreme shortage of manpower, also in this mailing was a notice of a meeting to decide on the distribution of a $10.50 per hour pay raise
Japan Alex I been preaching this shit since the 60s and I can tell you John Lennon was dead on when he said " you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao ......
post #4277 of 5454

@scarphe, it is perfectly fine, for a co-op to make lots of money; socialism has nothing to do with not making money! The money is just divided more fairly amongst employees, rather than lining CEOs' pockets (which, don't lie, happens in companies on a regular basis).

 

@Piobaire, interesting chart, I must admit, and I'll give you that, but you're dead wrong, if you think the richest among us do not hold most of the wealth.

 

If socialism can end child labour and save the planet alone--two things it does by its inherit nature--then we should be all in.

@englade321, good, glad to have a comrade.

post #4278 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanAlex01 View Post

@englade321
, good, glad to have a comrade.
We use the term " brother" but make no mistake I am no enemy of capitalism. That old adversarial stance has contributed more than its share to the diminished state of organized labor in this country. I was just lucky to have aligned myself with an organization that's was forward thinking enough to understand the necessity of CO - operation and partnership . I have no illusions about the name on my paycheck
post #4279 of 5454

Capitalism is flawed by it's design, and has made a wealth divide larger than we have seen in over one hundred years. Socialism is miles better. How you can't be an enemy of it is odd seeing as you yourself say you benefit from the socialist model. Brother or not, it doesn't change the facts. We can do it without you.

post #4280 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanAlex01 View Post

>@Piobaire
, interesting chart, I must admit, and I'll give you that, but you're dead wrong, if you think the richest among us do not hold most of the wealth.

You're very sneaky in reframing things when your original attempt does not work. You made a specific statement placing "CEOs and shareholders" on one side and "workers" on the other side. Now that I have demonstrated the false nature of this claim in that context, namely that for the most part "shareholders" and "workers" are one and the same, you are now making a new statement and trying to pass it off as your original statement. Of course the richest hold the most wealth, I mean, it's a fucking definitional thing here, but that's not what you originally said.

Just admit you were surprised to find workers make up the vast majority of shareholders as that's a big problem in the narrative you want to create.
post #4281 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanAlex01 View Post

Capitalism is flawed by it's design, and has made a wealth divide larger than we have seen in over one hundred years. Socialism is miles better. How you can't be an enemy of it is odd seeing as you yourself say you benefit from the socialist model. Brother or not, it doesn't change the facts. We can do it without you.
Capitalism and socialism in their polar( idealistic) forms have both show themselves to be deeply flawed. The solutions to society's I'll are myriad and to think you can end them by applying a single "ism" is highly naive at best . And no you can't do it without us because that is called oppression and makes you no better than the very thing you claim to be opposed to
post #4282 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanAlex01 View Post

Capitalism is flawed by it's design, and has made a wealth divide larger than we have seen in over one hundred years. Socialism is miles better. How you can't be an enemy of it is odd seeing as you yourself say you benefit from the socialist model. Brother or not, it doesn't change the facts. We can do it without you.
by what criteria do you make this asesement? let people be free to join or create cooperatives or get jobs being exploited by evil ceos...

Freedom is key and i am sure those cooperatives you like so much become evil as well... look at the history of the beat farming cooperatives in the midwest of usa.
post #4283 of 5454
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

You're very sneaky in reframing things, when your original attempt does not work. You made a specific statement placing "CEOs and shareholders" on one side and "workers" on the other side. Now that I have demonstrated the false nature of this claim in that context, namely that for the most part "shareholders" and "workers" are one and the same, you are now making a new statement, and trying to pass it off as your original statement. Of course, the richest hold the most wealth, I mean, it's a fucking definitional thing here, but that's not what you originally said.

Just admit you were surprised, to find workers make up the vast majority of shareholders, as that's a big problem in the narrative you want to create.

 

But, you're trying to write your own narrative here. The difference is mine is factual, and yours is not. I am not surprised by that chart, as I already knew a large amount of shares are owned by the public (wasn't sure on the numbers by date, so that was interesting). 1% of the US people own 75% of the shares, and that's a fact. The narrative you're trying to write (much more sneakily than I) is, that by the public owning large amounts of shares, the wealth divide is somehow not as great, or that socialism wouldn't work in decreasing it. You're calling me out for creating a narrative, but you yourself are creating a parallel one.

 

You're using subterfuge, to get me to admit to something other than the principle I am speaking of, in the hopes that foolish people will think, that I have somehow lost my argument, and I won't do it, because I'm not stupid enough to fall for it.


Edited by JapanAlex01 - 7/26/15 at 6:39am
post #4284 of 5454

Things that are impossible to solve under capitalism which we'd have, at least, a much larger chance of solving under socialism:

 

1. Wealth inequality: Without CEOs and (non-worker) shareholders (i.e. the richest shareholders), and with the power of companies in the workers' hands, wealth can be proportionally distributed. There is a falsehood, that socialism is about everyone having exactly the same wage. There can be a structural and wage hierarchy under socialism; it's just much fairer.

 

2. Child labour: Currently, companies outsource their labour to cheaper (usually Asian) countries. This includes a huge amount of child labour. No amount of reform will solve this. Under socialism, the labour would stay within the country, as people would otherwise lose jobs, and, as the workers would have a say in the company, they would refuse outsourcing of labour.

 

3. Saving the environment: Because companies outsource so much, huge numbers of tankers have to move across the oceans on a regular basis. By keeping work inside the country, it would cut down massively on fossil fuel expenditure, oil spills and other environmental disasters. Also, under capitalism, because the end goal is maximum profit, companies have little incentive, to save the planet. No amount of reform will solve that fundamental problem. Under socialism, because there is a much larger statistical chance of there being morally sound people running companies (because they're owned and run by more people), it is much more likely we'd see a decline in the destructive treatment of the planet. We'd, also, be more likely to see co-ops springing up selling green energy, and, without huge fossil fuel corporations controlling the market, people would have a green source of energy.

 

4. Debt culture: Currently, the governments don't want to tax the people, because they'd be voted out; they don't want to tax the rich (who control most of the wealth), because they'd be voted out. So, the rich lend money to the government which they have to pay back with interest, and they avoid paying corporation tax on their companies. Under socialism, wealth distribution would be much fairer, the rich wouldn't have the money, to control the current debt culture from which they benefit, and the people would be far happier being taxed knowing the money they gave in taxes would be used for their benefit, and not for paying back the rich (with interest) who don't care about them or the planet.

 

There are other solvable issues, too, but if we solved these four through socialism--and, I'm not saying we have a 100% chance of doing so under socialism, but that we have a 0% chance of doing so under capitalism (otherwise, we would have done it by now)--then we should all be on board with socialism. That is the 'narrative' (i.e. plain fact) I am creating. You know it, and you're trying to subvert attention away from it.

post #4285 of 5454

Richard Wolff on socialism (there's a whole bunch of these talks on his YouTube channel). He's a leading professor of economics who went to Harvard, Yale and Stanford. Just for casual learning and enjoyment. ;)

 


Edited by JapanAlex01 - 7/26/15 at 6:23am
post #4286 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanAlex01 View Post

Richard Wolff on socialism (there's a whole bunch of these talks on his YouTube channel). He's a leading professor of economics who went to Harvard, Yale and Stanford. Just for casual learning and enjoyment. wink.gif


 


No one is going to watch that shit.
post #4287 of 5454

Well, I don't think you're intelligent enough, to learn anything, anyway, Harold, but other people who are interested in creating a better world for their children might want to watch it.


Edited by JapanAlex01 - 7/26/15 at 4:12am
post #4288 of 5454
No. No one will watch it.
post #4289 of 5454

Regardless of whether anyone will watch it on this tiny corner of the internet or not, capitalism is over. It's dead. And socialism will start popping up in countries all over the world. It's happening in Greece, it will most likely happen next in Spain and Italy, and it will eventually happen in the US (where you live). Whether you're smart enough, to think about what will effect the country you live in or not, is up to you.

post #4290 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanAlex01 View Post

Regardless of whether anyone will watch it on this tiny corner of the internet or not, capitalism is over. It's dead. And socialism will start popping up in countries all over the world. It's happening in Greece, it will most likely happen next in Spain and Italy, and it will eventually happen in the US (where you live). Whether you're smart enough, to think about what will effect the country you live in or not, is up to you.


I certainly hope not, this is still a pretty decent place to live. I'd hate for it to turn into that statist hell-hole you call England.
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