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Stupid political crap your friends post on facebook. - Page 164

post #2446 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty_Webb View Post

If someone says that they hate gays because their bible says so, is it wrong to think less of them for that or should we be tolerant of such an opinion? Should we be tolerant of intolerance? If we are not and that someone then accuses you of intolerance for not being tolerant of their religious beliefs, is it wrong to think that they are moronic?

As an aside, I don't agree with the vast majority of what japanalex said and I certainly don't like the way he said it, but those people who say that people should be tolerant of other people's faiths generally mean their own faith in my experience and are generally not particularly tolerant of other faiths themselves.

[dons flame suit]

I don't think it's wrong to think less of them at all. Tolerance, for me, means that I will tolerate the person speaking those kinds of hateful opinions and won't punch them in the face or try to pass a law preventing him/her from speaking.

I will think less of them and think they are stupid, but I certainly would never try to prevent them from making those statements, and I oppose others' attempts to silence the stupid and ignorant amongst us.
post #2447 of 5454
Well said, HB.
post #2448 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by harvey_birdman View Post

I don't think it's wrong to think less of them at all. Tolerance, for me, means that I will tolerate the person speaking those kinds of hateful opinions and won't punch them in the face or try to pass a law preventing him/her from speaking.

I will think less of them and think they are stupid, but I certainly would never try to prevent them from making those statements, and I oppose others' attempts to silence the stupid and ignorant amongst us.

Agree entirely.
post #2449 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty_Webb View Post

Agree entirely.

Your above statements HB was responding to indicates you do not agree entirely.
post #2450 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

There's so much here to pick apart.

For instance your first sentence is either irrelevant or a straw man. Your second is incorrect as you were clearly trying to justify why you disagree with religious tolerance in your first statement, i.e. you just mean "your" religion. Then you admit your declaration was based on anecdotal evidence, (your experience).

Your next paragraph is unintelligible.

And so on. I also suspect you think your critique of my meta-statement is a good one so carry on.

If by tolerant you mean what Harvey meant, then I don't disagree. When I said should we be tolerant of intolerance, I meant speaking out about it or thinking less of someone. Not preventing it from being spoken in the first place. I note that you're quite comfortable speaking out at things you disagree with. So, to the extent that you think you're being tolerant of my opinions, then we are not in disagreement, just semantic differences.
post #2451 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Your above statements HB was responding to indicates you do not agree entirely.

I think it's quite clear from the bolded statements Harvey quoted that I was meaning intolerance as speaking out against it. Given that the girl in JA's post accused him of intolerance for his post on facebook, I thought that was the basis we were working on. What Harvey described is different and I do entirely agree with what he said.
post #2452 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty_Webb View Post

If by tolerant you mean what Harvey meant, then I don't disagree. When I said should we be tolerant of intolerance, I meant speaking out about it or thinking less of someone. Not preventing it from being spoken in the first place. I note that you're quite comfortable speaking out at things you disagree with. So, to the extent that you think you're being tolerant of my opinions, then we are not in disagreement, just semantic differences.

I speak out here because this is a discussion forum. I do not post on FB (as I don't have an account) like JA says he does as a) I think FB is not something I want to participate in and b) that's not "speaking out" that's "picking a fight" when no one else has done something to warrant it. It's one thing to disagree in a discussion forum and it's a completely different thing to just randomly post to your FB audience what are essentially "fighting words."

As to one of your earlier questions, "Do you really think it's fascist to think that someone who doesn't like gay marriage is an asshole?" you've conflated a few things. I do think it is a form of intellectual fascism to believe someone is an "asshole" merely because they hold a different view from you on a hot button topic. You are exerting an intellectual form of totalitarianism by deeming people to automatically be an "asshole" for not holding your position. In your position of totalitarianism you have decided that no position but yours is justifiable or tenable. On the general level this is exactly what JA was so wound up about, intellectual complacency, and even on this particular level it is a silly declaration to make. I know a few people that are against gay marriage and they are certainly not assholes. They have very reasoned opinions on why they feel it is not good for society, and while their reasoning might be faulty, this does not necessarily make them assholes. Hell, if a person does not believe in the institution of marriage in toto, they definitionally would be against gay marriage. Since they view all marriage as not desirable does this then make them "assholes" as the sub-category of marriage that is "gay marriage" is something they will also not believe in?
post #2453 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty_Webb View Post

If someone says that they hate gays because their bible says so, is it wrong to think less of them for that or should we be tolerant of such an opinion? Should we be tolerant of intolerance? If we are not and that someone then accuses you of intolerance for not being tolerant of their religious beliefs, is it wrong to think that they are moronic?

As an aside, I don't agree with the vast majority of what japanalex said and I certainly don't like the way he said it, but those people who say that people should be tolerant of other people's faiths generally mean their own faith in my experience and are generally not particularly tolerant of other faiths themselves.

[dons flame suit]

I'm a firm believer in gay rights and I'm a Christian. There are entire denominations dedicated to serving Gay Christians. And I think we should be tolerant of other faiths that don't infringe on our own ability to worship/not worship.

So why the hell should I have to sit there and quietly be called intolerant and bigoted just because I am Christian? Just because of JapanAlex's ignorance? That's ludicrous.

JapanAlex's exact quote was " She also did that shit weak fucks do: She said I have to be tolerant of people faith(s)." That's a pretty jarring statement from someone who has positioned themselves as some sort of human rights crusader.
post #2454 of 5454
Let's get the thread back on track.

post #2455 of 5454
So tempted to leap into this. I find most people get stuck on the Christians cherry pick homosexuality idea without wondering why for example Christians dont follow kosher.
post #2456 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

I speak out here because this is a discussion forum. I do not post on FB (as I don't have an account) like JA says he does as a) I think FB is not something I want to participate in and b) that's not "speaking out" that's "picking a fight" when no one else has done something to warrant it. It's one thing to disagree in a discussion forum and it's a completely different thing to just randomly post to your FB audience what are essentially "fighting words."

As to one of your earlier questions, "Do you really think it's fascist to think that someone who doesn't like gay marriage is an asshole?" you've conflated a few things. I do think it is a form of intellectual fascism to believe someone is an "asshole" merely because they hold a different view from you on a hot button topic. You are exerting an intellectual form of totalitarianism by deeming people to automatically be an "asshole" for not holding your position. In your position of totalitarianism you have decided that no position but yours is justifiable or tenable. On the general level this is exactly what JA was so wound up about, intellectual complacency, and even on this particular level it is a silly declaration to make. I know a few people that are against gay marriage and they are certainly not assholes. They have very reasoned opinions on why they feel it is not good for society, and while their reasoning might be faulty, this does not necessarily make them assholes. Hell, if a person does not believe in the institution of marriage in toto, they definitionally would be against gay marriage. Since they view all marriage as not desirable does this then make them "assholes" as the sub-category of marriage that is "gay marriage" is something they will also not believe in?

Fair points. I was in no way defending JA and what he did. On the gay marriage thing, I'll concede the point, but I would then change my wording to include if they would make efforts to prevent it from happening (being legalised if you will). If someone disapproves of marriage as a whole, then I have no particular issue with that either, so long as they don't try to prevent the people who do want to marry from marrying.

My point of view is basically you can think what you like, but don't act on it in a way that would impinge on anyone else's rights. If you disapprove of marriage, don't get married, but don't stop people from getting married. If you disapprove of gay marriage, don't enter into one, but don't prevent other people from doing so. If you think it's okay to put people of other faiths to death, then I would strongly recommend not sharing that, especially in the same sentence as you're accusing someone else of hate speech, but you can think it, so long as you don't actually do it. I really should have said "do you think it's fascist to think that someone who would attempt to ban gay marriage is an asshole?" That's what I was thinking when I said it.
post #2457 of 5454
In the future I hope they find a cure for gay then there wouldn't be a need for such debates any more. In the meantime if you are gay you should stop having that gay sex cause it is truly disgusting.
post #2458 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLMountainMan View Post

I'm a firm believer in gay rights and I'm a Christian. There are entire denominations dedicated to serving Gay Christians. And I think we should be tolerant of other faiths that don't infringe on our own ability to worship/not worship.

So why the hell should I have to sit there and quietly be called intolerant and bigoted just because I am Christian? Just because of JapanAlex's ignorance? That's ludicrous.

JapanAlex's exact quote was " She also did that shit weak fucks do: She said I have to be tolerant of people faith(s)." That's a pretty jarring statement from someone who has positioned themselves as some sort of human rights crusader.

For the record, I certainly don't think that you should have to sit there quietly and be called intolerant and bigoted for being a Christian.

JA's full quote was this: Posted on Facebook, that it's tiring as shit, when religious people use religious text(s), to justify homophobia/racism/sexism/etc. Especially when there are multiple gross passages in the Bible, as an example. Eg: The Bible says it's OK to rape someone, if you pay the father, that disobediant children should be put to death, as should rape victims, people who swear and people of other faiths. I got a few hear-hears, then one girl said 'all of those things are OK,' and that I was spreading hate speech. She also did that shit weak fucks do: She said I have to be tolerant of people faith(s). Not when they advocate all of those things.

What the one girl said was basically that it's ok to rape someone if you pay the father, that disobedient children should be put to death and rape victims, people who swear and people of other faiths should be put to death. That, to my mind is seriously intolerant - in fact, directly so to people of other faiths. Said girl then also said that JA has to be tolerant of people's faith. It was this intolerance and bigotry to which I was referring. But these views are far from the mainstream of Christianity no?

I wasn't attacking you or your post. Merely commenting on one part of it - namely the hypocrisy of the girl demanding tolerance while at the same time exhibiting intolerance. I quite enjoyed your dismantling of JA's commentary. Especially the Hadfield thing.
post #2459 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jr Mouse View Post

Let's get the thread back on track.


It's incomplete. Should finish off with, "...and no matter how badly the Dems have destroyed the public education system (particularly in minority districts.)" wink.gif

Ty, cheers, mate.
post #2460 of 5454
A lot of this is really, truly dumb. Ty_Webb has been the only commenter who has written anything of sense. I never said all Christians are homophobic/racist/sexist; I have plenty of friends who are Christians, and are not these things. I obviously meant to write non-secular; I apologise for my criminal typo. Basically, if you are a religious person, and believe being gay is a sin/wrong, you are a homophobe. I completely agree with freedom of speech--along with homophobia, lack of freedom of speech and sexism/misogyny are the biggest societal problems facing the world. I completely advocate your right to say whatever the hell you want, but, like Ty_Webb said (I believe), I have the right to call you a cunt for believing you are right. I didn't mean to say, that only weak people respect other people's religions; I understand I probably didn't write that very well. I meant: It's a weak response, to say I have to respect them without really returning anything to the table, by just saying, 'yeah, well, hate speech.' Frankly, it's disgusting; hate speech is what these dumb fucks are guilty of, not me--saying gay people will go to hell/etc. What's more hateful than that--especially within the context of the Christian faith (but this could apply to many religions--I'm just using Christianity as a culturally accessible one here). So far, the responses from most here have just shown your complete skill in miss-reading my post--Ty_Webb even reposted it, for you to read again--and lack of any shred of intelligence. At the very least, you are the homophobe fucks, of which I speak. I feel there really is no more point in arguing/debating this with you guys, as you lack all skill in that area, and are just putting up walls--most likely, due to said homophobia likeliness. I never 'attacked' anyone of Facebook with my post; I have the right, to say what I want there (the girl said that I don't), and I never specifically targeted anyone, posted it on anyone's page, and was careful to say 'many,' 'some' and not 'all.'
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