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Stupid political crap your friends post on facebook. - Page 68

post #1006 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Humphrey Appleby View Post


It is actually one of Stitches's favourite song..
post #1007 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldarchon View Post

Laugh at yourself as there is no true definition of socialism
Of course there is. Or rather, there is a very well studied history of the socialist movements and their evolutions. I suggest you go to your nearest library and read a little about the history of political movements in Europe.

I am afraid I don't know a good reference I could point you to in English, but I can give you some pointers in French if you want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldarchon View Post

they were socialists FOR THE DEFINITION OF THAT ERA ..
Historical ignorance still reigns supreme among partisan hacks, I see.

The simple truth is that they were not.

The more complex answer is that you could maybe argue that the Strasser brothers and Goebbels had some socialist ideas in the early 1920s but the NSDAP had completely abandoned that part of the early DAP doctrine by the end of the 1920s, long before it came to power. Hitler himself, of course, had nothing but contempt for those "red-browns". In fact, abandoning those points of the programme is part of what permitted the NSDAP rise to power.

If you want more details, I suppose Ian Kershaw's biography of Hitler is a good starting point.
post #1008 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordecai View Post

Austin is the only city I can think of that's been stuck in the 90s since the 1980s.


Where young people go to retire and all the hot girls wear glasses. laugh.gif
post #1009 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhowie View Post

Constant racism, no. Casual racism, sure.
Austin is so overrated. I hate the fuckers that live there.

+1. I still look forward to visiting Atlanta on my next vacation, Little Five Points looks awesome.
post #1010 of 5454
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Originally Posted by javyn View Post

+1. I still look forward to visiting Atlanta on my next vacation, Little Five Points looks awesome.

going to meet AF in person?
post #1011 of 5454
Sure why not? Didn't know he was there though.
post #1012 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post



Where young people go to retire and all the hot girls wear glasses. laugh.gif


inlove.gif
post #1013 of 5454
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etienne View Post

The simple truth is that they were not.
.

The economy was basically controlled by the Reich. employers were "favored" over the employees, but all were beholden to the set goals of the regime and basically had to submit to political control of their actions
It certainly wasn't a Marxist state, but it wasn't anything like a free market either. It also had nothing comparable to "the right" in American politics, but people love their hyperbole, don't they?
post #1014 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordecai View Post

The economy was basically controlled by the Reich.
Not really. At least not until the "war economy" was put in place in 1943. In the 1930s, the economic policy was pretty standard (a combination of deficit spending and militarization). It is true that the nazi party tried to implement its organizing princîple ("FührerPrinzip") in all of society, but that meant that ideally workers had to submit to employers completely, hardly a socialist move.

When the war economy was gradually put in place, like so much of Nazi Germany, competing agencies meant that there never was an effective control, with rivalries between Speer, Schacht, Funk and Goering (as head of the 4-year plan of 1936). In any case, the inspiration was Ludendorff more than any socialist-style ideals.
Quote:
certainly wasn't a Marxist state, but it wasn't anything like a free market either.
I never denied that. But there are many other options besides "socialist" and "free market". It was certainly neither.
post #1015 of 5454
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etienne View Post

In the 1930s, the economic policy was pretty standard

Maybe for France?
One of my points before was that even though employees had to "submit" to employers, those employers had to submit to the state. The idea that because those at the top had disagreements about implementation of the four year plan doesn't change the fact that a small cadre of elites was effectively controlling the economy. Businesses had to satisfy the state before they could satisfy their other consumers, and if they were successful at satisfying their consumers I believe there were massive taxes imposed on profits (except for those who were able to align themselves with those aforementioned elites). How can you even call the four year plan "pretty standard?"
post #1016 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordecai View Post

Maybe for France?
One of my points before was that even though employees had to "submit" to employers, those employers had to submit to the state. The idea that because those at the top had disagreements about implementation of the four year plan doesn't change the fact that a small cadre of elites was effectively controlling the economy. How can you even call the four year plan "pretty standard?"

Not really, maybe corporatism was stronger in Italy but Germany's was much less centralized then the nazi themselves would have liked to believe. I mean the elites had champagne together and met at various social events but that is a given in all our current market-democracies so...
post #1017 of 5454
Thread Starter 
Having measures in place that force businesses to act in certain ways is just not that different from explicitly telling businesses how they have to act. Implicit force is not all that different from explicit force (not that Nazis shied away from explicit force, obviously).
post #1018 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordecai View Post

Having measures in place that force businesses to act in certain ways is just not that different from explicitly telling businesses how they have to act. Implicit force is not all that different from explicit force (not that Nazis shied away from explicit force, obviously).

Every fucking country has a confluence of elites and laws governing the conduct of business, I dunno what you are trying to prove here but if it is part of the eternal "nazis are socialists" bullshit meme please stop. European far right isn't the same as american right, ok. Corporatism or at least the appearance of it is more popular among european fascists than the american right, ok. Not sure why this is so important to retards like lighthouse or even non-insane dudes like you, no equivalence needs to be drawn between fascists and modern right/left wing movements for the later to be good/bad/have problems.
post #1019 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordecai View Post

Maybe for France?
Not at all. I meant it was pretty standard for the time. It was pretty close to Roosevelt policies, for example (except with more militarization), and very close to what Schleicher had been doing in 1931-1932. No "nazi revolution" here. France had very different policies at least until 1936, which were much more traditional (defense of the gold standard, deflation) and actually much less effective at restoring growth.
Quote:
One of my points before was that even though employees had to "submit" to employers, those employers had to submit to the state.
And my point was that control of the employers was pretty loose, until 1942-1943 at least, and not very effective even after that. I think our differences here are pretty small. We seem to disagree on the degree of control. But we can probably both agree that Nazi Germany was pretty far from a free-market economy, but was not socialist either. This was the point I was trying to make earlier.
post #1020 of 5454
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordecai View Post

How can you even call the four year plan "pretty standard?"
It was very much in the spirit of the time. Many people in the 1930s were discussing the merits of various forms of incentive-based plans (as opposed to the soviet-style mandatory plans).
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