Body Measurements vs Garment Measurements, Fit and MTM.

I've lurked here for awhile, and this is my attempt to create a post I would have found useful when I first started investigating MTM clothes. I've bought about 6 mtm shirts from various manufactures, and this documents my experience with trying to dial in my fit. I'm going to start by giving you my baseline body measurements, thoughts on self-measuring, then post my prefered garment measurements and experiences with different manufactures. Hopefully some people will find this helpful, I know when I started I had no idea how much extra "ease" I needed in my shirts vs my body. Sorry this post may be long.

These body measurements are made flush against my skin, with arms down, when relaxed, but without any sort of squeezing on tension.
Neck: 17.5"
Shoulder: 19.75"
Chest: 48.5"
Stomach (right above navel): 45.5"
Stomach (at widest point): 46.25"
Hips: 47"
Arm Length: 24.75"
Bicep: 16.5"
Forearm: 12.5"
Wrist (at bone): 8.25"
Wrist (1.5" up from bone): 9.25
Thigh: 27.5"
Knee: 18.5"
Calf: 19"
Weight: 235 lbs.
Height: 5' 7"

I'm shorter, but still a big guy, muscular but soft . Think of the Dad in the Incredibles, he still had the muscle mass, but was totally out of shape. This affects my fit preference as I want to have clothes as streamlined as possible but without showing any bulging underneath.

Self Measuring: I usually had to do this on my own, I say measure multiple times. If you come up with different numbers, try to figure out why. Are you squeezing? Are you breathing in or out? Are you in a different spot/side? There are no right answers but try to measure your body in the spot that would correspond to the same place where the garment would cover you body. Some notes-

Shoulder: Toughest to nail down for me, my shoulders don't have a clear point of drop to arm. if I go top of bone to bone my actual measurement is shorter (19.25), because of my deltoid muscles that is just not wide enough. What works better for me is running my hand over my shoulder outward, then up my arm skyward. Wherever those two lines would meet, that closest point is my shoulder. Sometimes measuring with a shirt that has shoulder seams can affect your perception of this point, so unless those seams are dead on where you want them, remember just to use those seams as points of reference. I find measuring without a shirt/with a wifebeater helped.

Chest: Helps to know this measurement at roughly the point of where the bottom of the armholes on the shirt/suit would be, since this is the point the garment would be measured anyway.

Stomach: Also helps to know this measurement at the point on your body where a jacket would have its greatest waist suppression (above navel for me). For shirts I'd reference the widest point possible, so there is no bulging at the point (this is the lovehandle spot for me). You skinny folks might not have to worry.

Bicep: For me the top of my arm at the armpit is the widest point, but for some of you the widest point will be lower than this. Just know what you are measuring and know where the manufacturer is asking for. It makes a difference.

Wrist. The wrist measurement at the bone is not as useful for me as the wrist measurement at about 1.5" higher than the bone. Since cuffs are 2.5"- 3" wide, I have found that it is at this wider point that the edge of the cuff comes into contact with my arm. Smaller than this and it is constricting, larger and the cuff slides up.

I'll put down my garment measurents on the next post and some notes on fit and different MTM manufacturers.

Ok here are my preferred Shirt measurements. Compare these to my post above and you can see how much "ease" I prefer, remember I'm going for as small as possible without creating any pulling or bulging from my body underneath, you could go a bit tighter if you are smaller or want to show a bit more. I wouldn't go too much larger as there will be noticable extra fabric (I've gone bigger and know from experience). These are actual garment measument, not the hypothetical measurements that are entered onto MTM sites. I'll post later on ProperCoth, BiasedCut, Cottonwork, and Moderntailor and my experience between what I ordered and what I got. Hopefully it will save you some $ on trial and error. Be aware most websites that do exact shirt measurements will have in input half of what I list below (I list this half measure like so):

Neck: 17.75"
Shoulders: 19.75"
Chest: 51" (25.5)
Waist: 49" (24.5)
Hips: 50" (25)
Arm Length: 24.75"
Armhole: 23" (11.5)
Bicep (at armhole): 20" (10)
Bicep (3" lower): 18.5" (9.25)
Shirt Length (back): 31.5"
Shirt Length (front): 32"

NOTES
Neck: Purely preference, I could go smaller, but why be uncomfortable? Measure a shirt you like to wear buttoned up and adjust to preference.

Shoulders: Also preference, better to have overshot .25"-.5" on shirts, even a tiny bit too short doesn't look right in my eyes.

Chest and Waist: For me adding about 2.5" to my body measurements is the perfect amount of ease. Any more than 3" looks noticably large. Since most people are smaller than me, I'd say reduce to 2" - 1.5" above your body measurement

Hips: I add about 3" because having a little extra here seems to work better, it doesn't look tight when untucked over pants and seems to stay tucked better when tucked.

Arm length: Also prefernce, easier to determine once you establish what shoulder point you like. But will require some trial and error, unless you are measuring a shirt you know is perfect for you. I find as long as the cuff is a good fit a little extra doesn't hurt. I don't like to see the cuff pulling when my arms are extended, so this is just long enough to prevent that.

Cuff: I used the measurent 1.5" up from my wrist bone that I mentioned above. That way the cuff can't pull up my arm past this point.

Armhole: While I know there is a benefit to a higher armhole, I find it has to do more with armhole shape than size, I find if its wider across and flat on bottom it feels better, regardless of measured size. Most MTM will not let you adjust this anyway. 11.5" is a good size for me comfort-wise, much smaller and I have a hard time getting undershirt sleeves to fit well underneath, too small and it is uncomfortable. But most people probably want to go smaller. A warning, if your shoulder/chest is too long than the armhole is moot, since it will slide down your arm past the armpit, this might make your perceived armhole smaller. So when you get a shirt with perfect shoulders and chest width and the armhole is flush to your torso, that armhole you measured might be too small to easily fit your arm and undershirt through. Err bigger till you are sure.

Bicep: Be sure when you are ordering you read the sites measurement guide, especially for the bicep. Some sites ask for the width right at the armpit, some ask for the width at the middle of the upper arm (which is smaller for me). Fortunately a tailor can fix this if you overestimate, but if you make it too small, you'll have to live with it. I add about 2" to my body for this measurement for comfort. You can go smaller to show off your guns, but if you go much larger It just looks like too much extra fabric.

Shirt Length: Different sites measure the shirt from the back collar, some from the shoulder/coller seam in front. I listed my preference both ways. Although it depends on manufacturer, I find that they are seldom the same. Often my shirts turned out shorter than I wished. My advice is to expect the opposite side of whatever you length you are enteringto be 1 inch shorter. If you can live with that great, if not, adjust up. You can always get it hemmed on bottom if you plan on untucking anyway. You can't make it longer if it arrives too short.

Thats it. I'll post my experiences with the MTM makers I've used (how much they add for shrinkage, sloping shoulder, etc). Then I'll try to address suit fit beyond that. If you want to add your two cents on your body measurement vs garment measurements that would be great. I know most fellas on here seem to be smaller and more fit, so they may want to add what works for them.

My experiences with MTM: I've bought two shirts from Propercloth, two from Biased Cut, one from Cottonwork, one from Moderntailor. They each have subtly different ways of taking measurements, pay attention to what they are asking for. I like ProperCloth and BiasedCut the most from a construction/quality standpoint. Incidenly these two offer the least amount of options in terms shirt contsuction, they have a house style, but probably benefit from having less that can go wrong. I'd suggest ordering the least expensive shirt you can at first, from any merchant and use that to dial in your fit. I'd always order based off of shirt measurements as it makes it easier to adjust on the next shirt.

ProperCloth: Possibly have the best photographs of fabrics, so no suprises. I've always been happy here even with the less expensive fabrics. Prices are slightly higher and delivery charges are the absolute highest $15. But shipping is same for multiple shirts (I never order multiples, so the shipping kills me), Propercloth tends to add a lot to chest/torso/hips for shrinkage, so when you get the shirt you can expect it to be .5"-.75" inches larger in those areas for the half measurements. My shirts did not shrink too much, so make those measurements .5" less than normal. The propercloth site can translate your body measurements to shirt measurements, but I find it does seem to play it safe and add a lot of ease (the "super slim" option seems to translate best). In particular the bicep and wrist measurement added far too much for me so pay attention to those. Also the default spread collar is a pretty wide spread, so you may want the president point if you'd like a medium spread. The default "slim" forearm is fine, mine forearm is big, but I still have no problems with slim. Delivery is quick, about 3 weeks.

Biased Cut: Very few customization options for biased cut. Shipping is five bucks I think. Biased Cut has my absolute favorite pattern for their armhole. Very nice. Darts are on most shirts, as well as their nonfunctional full back pleat. I don't mind it. They also tend to add about a half inch to chest, torso, hip measurements for shrinkage, but the shirts I have actually almost shrank that much. Their bicep measurement is the lower one (I went way too big on my first try). I'd recommend the Coldwater shirt, that royal oxford cloth feels really really nice. Delivery is 4-5 weeks.

Cottonwork: Construction wise no problems here. They do not seem to add much, if any for shrinkage, so keep that in mind. They direct you to dry clean their shirts, so maybe that is why. I have one in the least expensive 100% cotton fabric (so-named superior level), which is actually nice and soft (softer than I expected). Couple things to watch out for though. If entering shirt measurements, do not select slim fit on anything, they will adjust your numbers down, I accidenly did this on my sleeve, and that thing is tight. Also my shirt is inexplicably 1 inch shorter than what I ordered (I used the "traditional" bottom, so maybe thats caused it?) The default setting is for sewn in collar stays, so change it if you want them removable, ditto for a two piece yolk (one piece is the default). Watch out for the cuff, they don't measure button to hole, they use end of cuff to end of cuff (fabric), I find that this is about 1" more than the standand button to end of buttonhole measurement. Shipping is free, which is nice. Delivery is 4-5 weeks.

Modern Tailor: Shipping is ten bucks. I ordered the "1st shirt special" $20 blue oxford shirt, fabric is hefty but not especially soft. They add a bit for shrinkage, but my shirt shrank exactly to size. They use the lower bicep measurement, so make sure you use that one, or else your shirt arms will be huge. Cuffs seem to be big, either they were expecting it to shrink or they use a "button to the inside edge of the button hole" measurement, so go a .25"-.5" less than the normal "button to outside edge of the buttonhole" measurement. Construction wise, I had one hiccup with modern tailor, I ordered the "hidden-buttondown" collar (for fun) but the buttons were unevenly set, I had to have my drycleaner, reset it. I'd avoid buttondowns with them.

Moderntailor makes for a good 1st trial shirt if you can live with the fabric. Cheap-shirt wise I'd go with Cottonwork as they have lots of options (even wrinkle free) below $75 with free shipping, they have lots of different construction options too. I'd go with Propercloth as a first shirt if money is less of an issue for you, since their website and experience seems to be the best. Biased cut shirts have had my favorite construction and details, you just have to happen to like their design.

Ok last post on this. Got delayed with football... I just measured out my best fitting jacket, it was made to measure by a local tailor and I've been extremely happy with it, visually it takes some of my bulk away. I don't have any experience with MTM suits online, as I'm risk averse when dropping that much cash. Its a two button suit in worsted wool. Here are the garment measurements (which you can compare with my body and shirt measurements above).

Shoulder: 20.25"
Chest: 49" (24.5)
Waist (at top button): 46.5" (23.25)
Bottom Jacket hem: 51.5" (25.75)
Armhole (half): 12.25"
Sleeve Length: 23.75"
Sleeve Opening (half): 6.5"
Jacket Length Front: 32"
Jacket Length Back: 30.5"
Pant waist: 41" (20.5)
Pant hip: 49" (24.5)
Front Rise 11"
Back Rise 17"
Half Thigh: 15"
Half Knee: 10.5"
Half Bottom Hem: 9.5"

Overall it looks like the jacket measurements end up being very close to the body especially at the shoulder and chest, just +.5" more than body measurements. Waist is +1" (any less and I think it would pull). The bottom jacket width doesn't really correspond to anything as it falls past my hip measurement. The vents don't blow out, but I imagine they would if it were any smaller. The two jacket lengths are just a function of the balance, it has to be longer in the front to accomodate my gut, depending on you posture and build I imagine yours will differ.

EDIT - Added armhole size for you to compare with shirt. Armhole feels good, probably due to shape, not size. I could go a little smaller, but not much.

I included the pant measurements for the hell of it, my pants are cut with much more ease, and have an nice tapered drape. The tailor probably did this to disguise my ginormous thighs and calves (too many squats, not enough cardio). The pants physically felt too big at first, but look really good, so who am I to argue. I would guess if you want your suit trousers to fit more like a pair of jeans, just add an inch or so to you body measurements and increase the bottom hem to match your knee width for a straight leg. I wouldn't get too tight on the thigh though, the trouser material is not going to behave like denim.

Well thats it from me, please post up if you use an MTM and want to share how their clothes differ from the measurements you inputed, or you have a different experience with the fit of your clothes vs your body measurements.

One last note on Propercloth, I've used their "slope shoulder" option in attempt to make up for some pulling on my dress shirts along my neck as a result of my relatively large trap muscles. Works like a charm, but if you chose this, I suggest you think about reducing your shoulder measurements by .25" or so. The slope option drops the shoulders relative to the collar and thus ads some extra length to each shoulder, even though they are the same width apart. The result is a nice smooth front for me when the collar is buttoned, but I get some reverse pull when I unbutton that top buttom (as if my shoulders are too square for the shirt), It may be those traps don't result in a big enough "slope". So, I only use the slope option on shirts that I will almost always button all the way up and wear a tie with (white shirts, etc.).