Dack's shoes question - Page 3

Further to the question over these "Dack Shoes" ---in years past when Dack models were pictured in the catalogues , they always identified the last on which the shoe was made.The reason for this is that each induivual last had unique fitting properties and many old guard customers knew what lasts worked for them and which didn't. These do not appear to be Canadian Dack lasts but rather something from the Cheaney factory. These new lines "look" like the old styles but will lack the custom grade fit properties of the originals. Daxman.

My compliments and I can see why as both are equally beautiful.


DUFFERIN - Burgundy Country Calf ^^


DUFFERIN - Mahogany Country Calf ^^

Please give us an update when you receive them Doc.

May I ask a nosy question ? I read that your size is 10.5/ 11 D  and these lines are made in F width only. So what size could you be ordering to get a quality fitting ?? Daxman.

With the many pair of Dack's (of old) I already have I can easily do a 10.5 or 11.
With their loafers a 10.5 fits me true to size. A size 11 loafer requires me to wear a thicker sock but still works fine.
With the Dack's laceups I can easily wear 10.5 but also enjoy the extra wiggle room an 11 offers.
I have found at the end of a long day (meaning hours of overtime) I actually prefer 11 which compensates for my feet swelling.
Overall it has been my experience that the half size difference is very small in terms of inches (millimetres).
All the Dack's shoes I have I would say are true to size. It would seem the new line 'Matthew Dack' will also be true to size.
I hope this made sense.

I was following --until you got to the end. The problem is , that the new line is only available in one width --F or double E-- and you don't wear that width. You are 2 widths narrower in a D. The length you choose is not going to compensate for that kind of discrepancy. If you were considering some nondescript shoe at a very low price , then you might not quibble but you are about to spend a premium price and should expect a first class fit . No ???

The F width listed is likely Cheaney's UK medium width, roughly equal to a US D width.

Wes : That is precisely the problem . A  "D" width is medium in all men's shoes by all recognized standards and an F (or EE) is always a wide size. However, since the  advent of the computer age -and I realize that has been for a long while --there has been a move in the industry to shrink the number of fitting options available . This was, pure and simply, a decision taken to shrink the costs involved . Consider that each size and half size and then each width they were made in EACH REQUIRED INDIVIDUAL LASTS - for the the shoes to be made on . That means that even a modest size run , made in just 3 widths , would require maybe 2- 3 dozen sets of  lasts ( a left and a right ). That is if you had only  "one"

 set of lasts to use --which would be impossible if you were trying to maintain any production at all. I hope this makes sense to everyone. A company such as Dacks utilized a wide array of lasts because of the different fitting properties needed to meet the demands of our clientele. Bottom line is that you needed hundreds of lasts which had to be replaced periodically due to wear and damage. You can just see the number crunchers generating the stats which showed massive savings if we could only get everyone to fall into line and wear a single width and while we are at it lets drastically reduce the number of lasts shapes used --narrow toe , wide toe , straight last etc. etc .-- and we'll also begin dropping some of the sizes totally like anything below 7 or 11 1/2, 12 1/2 . They tell you your  " old " size is no longer made , what are you going to do --go barefoot ?? 

No, that (only) applies to N.A. sizing. For English shoes, labelled with English sizing, the medium width is usually either E or F, depending on the maker.

Therefore, the F width listed is likely Cheaney's UK medium width, roughly equal to a US D width.

NO NO NO !!! The F will always "fit" wider --by 2 widths than a D. The fact is that in England and in much of Europe , the average guy will often wear an F (or even wider )  width. It seems to be something of a cultural thing .I have often waited on these gentlemen. When they let me measure them and the size indicated was a 9 D (MED.), they went on to insist on a size 8--not even 8.5, but an 8 or even less .They don't give a darn about the width as much as the length, feeling that the shorter "looked better". As a consequence , it was not unusual for the  customer to have his toe "touching" the front of his shoe .Many didn't mind this at all --in fact preferred it that way . North American born gents do not persue this fitting philosophy. Does this help to shed some light on the debate ?? 

Good to see this level of passion still lives for Dack's.
When my home is more in order I will line up all of my Dack's shoes and post photos.
Until then....

Here are some sizing comparisons based on the couple dozen pairs of shoes I've bought over the past few years. These sizes fit me roughly the same and I am confident of their equivalency. Since the Dufferin has attracted attention, let me say they are excellent shoes and I strongly recommend them. I bought two pairs before the bankruptcy. I have not bought anything yet from the new post-bankruptcy company, but it appears they've just taken the pre-bankruptcy Cheaney made Dack's and kept them 100% the same. I don't think discussing the old Canada made Dack's is worthwhile since those have not been available for over a decade and do not translate well to the Cheaney lasts - they're ancient history, in other words.

Allen Edmonds MacNeil (7 last) = 10E
Allen Edmonds Italian shoes = 11D
Alden Aberdeen = 10.5E
Dack's Dufferin (Cheaney 2003 last) = 10.5D
U.K. Cheaney (2003 last) = 9.5F (note that's a U.K. size)
U.K. Church's = 9.5F (again a U.K. size)

Thank you DD for this very informative and useful sizing information.

Did I miss something ----are they making "D" widths now ??? Or does somebody believe that 9.5 F is the same as 10.5 D  ?? These sizes correspond only if you happen to have a " true" 9.5 F width and you are looking to go longer for arch considerations. Not many are getting their arches measured on a Brannock Device, I would imagine .Cheers. Daxman.

Although I haven't ordered any of the "new" Dack's shoes yet, I'd be willing to bet that their F width is the same as the UK Cheaney F width, which is basically what Cheaney considers their medium width in the UK (they use G to designate wide widths in the UK) and the same as what Dack's used to designate D width in their Cheaney-made shoes pre-bankruptcy. Of course, UK medium widths, at least from Cheaney and Church's, typically fit a bit wider than medium widths from American brands such as Allen Edmonds or Alden, although from what I can tell Crockett medium widths seem to fit narrower, which is probably one reason why their shoes are so popular in North America.

Here's my shoe size thing again, deliberately expanded so as to increase confusion!

Allen Edmonds MacNeil (5 & 7 last) = 10E (but my toes are pinched by the pointy toe box)
Allen Edmonds Italian shoes = 11D
Alden Aberdeen = 10.5E
Alden Van = 10 D or E (that is to say, that's what I would wear if the damned instep wasn't so low...)
Alden Grant ~ 10D
Dack's Dufferin (Cheaney 2003 last) = 10.5D (now labelled F post-bankruptcy, but most likely the same as the pre-bankruptcy D*)
U.K. Cheaney (2003 last) = 9.5F (note that is a U.K. size)
U.K. Cheaney (175 last) = 9.5F**
U.K. Church's = 9.5F (again a U.K. size)
Peal Algonquin scotchgrain (Crockett 325 last) = 10.5D (U.S. size)
Peal Algonquin smooth (Crockett 317 last) = 11D (U.S. size)
Gucci 157440 = 10.5D
Gucci 015938 = 9.5D
Sebago Docksides = 10W
Sperry Auth. Originals ~ 10.5W
LL Bean mocs = 10.5EE

* Sizes and widths are, after all, just a number or letter printed on the leather and aren't always related to actual measured measurements. Shoe companies could, in theory, designate all their shoe sizes using unrelated numbers or figures much like BB does with their Black Fleece clothing, or even things as bizzare as dots or colour splotches, as long as it was a consistent and sequential system.

** Interestingly, I have found from direct experience that the Cheaney 175 last is almost a dead ringer for the Allen Edmonds #7 last, so Americans who wear the #7 in E width should seriously consider the shoes offered by Herring Shoes made by Cheaney on their 175 last in F width, many of which have some interesting leather & sole combinations which Edmonds doesn’t offer (such as the mahogany scotchgrain with dainite soles – a spectacular combo, believe me).
Edited by Doctor Damage - 3/25/12 at 8:29am

Generally speaking , high grade shoes are consistent in their size interpretation. That is , a D width is the accepted medium and F width is always the wide size. The G width or EEE is extra wide. The reason you can rely on this is that the market for upscale men's footwear is a relatively small one -- the same small pool of men looking for high quality shoes. This has never been a big group of customers and you don't want to mislead or be seen to be deceiving them . I sold Cheaney and Church for 32 yrs to the same customers who also purchased the best quality available from  the North American marketplace. Truth is that I wouldn't have lasted a week if I were as far off in my understanding as seems to be suggested.