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new ties -- passagio - Page 7

post #91 of 333
Can we get an English translation of that video?

@IchDien ?

C&A ?
post #92 of 333
My guess is that someone is working on it
post #93 of 333
@LA Guy, is there a reason why this specific topic is being deemed different than the other divisive issues we've had on this board? Foo, for example, often posts controversial things, and belabors his points endlessly, but I find the discussions that are driven out of those posts to be really useful. More so than the shopping posts that most of this board is occupied with (I'm not criticizing those posts or threads, but they do seem to have limited value).

Also, while Foo's threads are controversial - with participants not being respectful in the least - I've found them to actually bring the community here closer together, rather than drive people apart. It's those controversies that make for interesting reading.

I sympathize with your desire to keep the community glued together (as much of my interest in clothes is about the community that surrounds men's style rather than the clothes themselves). However, I also feel like a lot of this controversy was brought about because Gianni refused to respond. I worry that, by not allowing members to talk about this controversy here, people are just going to assume the worst, and talk about the topic elsewhere (on other forums, on Twitter, on blogs, or wherever). It doesn't seem realistic to stop a controversial conversation on the internet, and trying to seems like it'll just cause what has already happened: people feeling like something fishy is going on because they're not getting the response they want.

Anyway, I look forward to reading someone's translation of Giancarlo Maresca's comments.

And while I know people already know this, it might be worth stating that two matching patterns doesn't necessarily mean something. Patterns are duplicated from archives all the time. Here's a madder that Gianni posted recently, for example, and a duplicate of the pattern made for RL's pocket squares.



post #94 of 333
"Mr. Maresca, I am Francesco. Speak to me please of the history of the inkjet, which cannot be vintage, with the white backside."

"The first inkjet production began at Como in the 90s, the end of the 90s. It's about 15 years that they have been experimenting with this, even less. At the beginning, it was not very trustworthy, but now they realize interesting designs, with contrast - not, certainly, at the level of a block-printed silk. But for vintage, you couldn't mean anything but a block-printed silk. And certainly, a block-printed silk, (something I don't understand...I think he says "through a phase of corrosion") cannot leave a white backside - it is incompatible."

It continues from there to talk about inkjet-printed grenadine, but this seems the most relevant part.
post #95 of 333
I'm not sure that having a white backside is definitive proof that a silk has been ink jetted, personally. At least that's not how a silk printer explained it to me (FWIW, he happens to be a silk printer that provides silks to tie makers, along with other kinds of businesses).

I can check with him again in order to get clarification. I've been meaning to, but have just been really busy.
post #96 of 333
Who does Sam Hober's printed maccelfield silk? Is it in house?

Was going to use my Hober ties as a comparison, but the standard Hober construction doesn't allow me to see the "back" of the silk to see if it's white.

Doubt it's inkjette smile.gif
Edited by jrd617 - 5/29/14 at 9:52pm
post #97 of 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post

I'm not sure that having a white backside is definitive proof that a silk has been ink jetted, personally. At least that's not how a silk printer explained it to me (FWIW, he happens to be a silk printer that provides silks to tie makers, along with other kinds of businesses).

I can check with him again in order to get clarification. I've been meaning to, but have just been really busy.

If you get a chance to ask, make sure he understands that you mean a bright white of bleached silk, not just the raw silk color with the dye not saturated all the way through. I've been told that silk needs to be bleached before inkjetting but not block printing. Maybe it's technically possible to bleach silk and then block print onto it, and if you have the right combination of silk, print, and dye, it won't bleed through, even if that's not the way it would have commonly been done in the past.
post #98 of 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

If you get a chance to ask, make sure he understands that you mean a bright white of bleached silk, not just the raw silk color with the dye not saturated all the way through. I've been told that silk needs to be bleached before inkjetting but not block printing. Maybe it's technically possible to bleach silk and then block print onto it, and if you have the right combination of silk, print, and dye, it won't bleed through, even if that's not the way it would have commonly been done in the past.

Good point, and will do.

FWIW, when I spoke to Gianni about this, he said the whites on his ties looked brighter on the internet than they do in real life because he's color corrected them to look more saturated. The photos that Simon (from Permanent Style) and Dan (from An Uptown Dandy) posted do seem less bleached.
post #99 of 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post

@LA Guy, is there a reason why this specific topic is being deemed different than the other divisive issues we've had on this board? Foo, for example, often posts controversial things, and belabors his points endlessly, but I find the discussions that are driven out of those posts to be really useful. More so than the shopping posts that most of this board is occupied with (I'm not criticizing those posts or threads, but they do seem to have limited value).

Also, while Foo's threads are controversial - with participants not being respectful in the least - I've found them to actually bring the community here closer together, rather than drive people apart. It's those controversies that make for interesting reading.

I sympathize with your desire to keep the community glued together (as much of my interest in clothes is about the community that surrounds men's style rather than the clothes themselves). However, I also feel like a lot of this controversy was brought about because Gianni refused to respond. I worry that, by not allowing members to talk about this controversy here, people are just going to assume the worst, and talk about the topic elsewhere (on other forums, on Twitter, on blogs, or wherever). It doesn't seem realistic to stop a controversial conversation on the internet, and trying to seems like it'll just cause what has already happened: people feeling like something fishy is going on because they're not getting the response they want.

Anyway, I look forward to reading someone's translation of Giancarlo Maresca's comments.

And while I know people already know this, it might be worth stating that two matching patterns doesn't necessarily mean something. Patterns are duplicated from archives all the time. Here's a madder that Gianni posted recently, for example, and a duplicate of the pattern made for RL's pocket squares.

I certainly cannot stop *anything* from being discussed on the internet, but I can make a decision as to whether something is or is not detrimental to Styleforum.  One of the things that has kept Styleforum vibrant all these years has been that the conversations have been collegial, and while not respectful in tone, respectful of the various participants.  I think that in this discussion, we've crossed that line.  

 

The difference between this topic and pretty much all of Foo's discussion topics is that they are nearly all silly, while this is rather serious. I think that allegations of theft are more serious than Foo's issues with snooty Hermes SAs.  And these allegations are much more amorphous and difficult to answer than whether or not someone ordered pants and had not yet received them.  As far as I know, everyone has received ties.  It's the provenance of the silks that is in question, and from all the posts I've read, and blog posts from tiemakers, opinions are mixed, and it boils down to a "he said, he said" situation.

 

I read Gianni's post, and the subsequent discussion, and it seems that those who were not convinced remained unconvinced, and those who were convinced stayed convinced.  As I posted before that explanation, those who are convinced will continue to patronize Gianni, and those who don't, will not.  ime, there types of "controversies" are never resolved.

 

I've said this privately to the mods, and I may as well say this publicly.  Over the last decade and a half or so, I've had the privilege of working with literally hundreds of designers, manufacturers, and retailers - and pretty much everyone has something bad to insinuate about their competition.  Veiled and bald allegations of fraud, theft, and general dishonesty and bad business practices are the topic of many, many, conversations.  There have been instances when I've talked to one manufacturer or retailer, and heard some pretty serious allegations, and then talked to the other retailer or manufacturer, and heard pretty much exactly the same thing about the first.  Gossip and innuendo are common currency.  The problem arises when gossip is told to customers who then take these opinions as gospel truth, and who then report these opinions to the general public.   

 

We've actually rejected many affiliates requests to delete negative posts about their businesses that were made outside of their affiliate threads.  We even had to give two affiliates the boot because they were defrauding members (as in, goods were paid for and never received) or were found liable for misleading and illegal business practices (and no, I'm not going into further detail about either case.)  However, in this case, there are actual, unsubstantiated allegations of fraud and theft.  I made a judgement call based on what I've read and what I know about the garment trade.  Some may disagree with my decision, but it's ultimately my responsibility to weigh the pros and cons, and make that decision.

 

Thanks,

 

Fok.

post #100 of 333
I agree with you that accusations (often false) get thrown around a lot in the clothing trade. And agree that it's dangerous if something gets picked up by the public and taken for gospel.

FWIW, I feel like much of the conversation so far has centered on whether or not Gianni's fabrics are indeed vintage. And that seems like an important point since that's how he advertises them. His whole selling point is 1) his ties are bespoke and 2) his fabrics are vintage. I don't think the second part is trivial, as that seems to be the reason why people are willing to pay unusually high prices.

Foo's made accusations of tailors and makers beyond snooty SAs and non-delivered pants. He's said that my tailor glues seams instead of sews them. He's also accused Simonnot Godard of using polyster in fabrics they advertised as pure cotton. I don't think he's right on the first part, but he was right on the second, which was awesome cause I picked up a bunch of that fabric at basement prices after it was deemed undesirable by everyone.

But back to Gianni, I think this accusation about theft is pretty secondary. Most of this seems to be about whether or not his silks are as advertised.
post #101 of 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsugsu View Post

Hey Fok, criminal allegations aside, is the seemingly rolling target of what is vintage or not fair game? How about discussing customer service & quality of fabrication in the context of the interwebz proclamations of PC being the new world standard in bespoke neckwear?

Thanks,

G

You are always free to discuss customer service and the quality of fabrication.  

 

The "vintage or not" thing seems sorta silly to me.  Having strong opinions about anything based on low res, adjusted, pictures on the internet is ridiculous, and the "experts" seem to be divided on the subject anyway.  I am tempted to not allow it, just to save myself the hassle of wading through all the posts, but I'm not going to do so.  Instead, think of this as a boxing match.  You get one warning for a low blow (which has already been issued), and after that, you have to be more careful about letting your hands travel south of the equator, because you'll get a point deducted if you do.

post #102 of 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post

FWIW, when I spoke to Gianni about this, he said the whites on his ties looked brighter on the internet than they do in real life because he's color corrected them to look more saturated. The photos that Simon (from Permanent Style) and Dan (from An Uptown Dandy) posted do seem less bleached.

Here are the photo’s of two silks referred to earlier on this and the AV thread and pictures of the same I took just now with some natural daylight, no flash.









For comparison, see these pictures uploaded by Jason in his own thread where he explained what he thinks is the difference between silk screened and inkjet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Carter View Post

So for anyone who is interested in wading in to this debate of ink jet vs screen printing (I don't like to use the term silkscreen because silk hasn't been used in screens for quite some time now).

Below, the first photo shows the back of a screen printed pocket square from Macclesfield. You can see much of the colour, especially the blue in the pattern has migrated through to the other side. I personally, and this is just my own experience have never seen an inkjet printed silk show through like this to the rear.



The second photo shows one of my ties from the rear, which is also from Macclesfield however is inkjet printed. You can see barely any colour show through on the back at all, it's essentially white with perhaps a very slight bit of the pattern visible. This has been my experience with all of the inkjet printed silks I've carried, and it seems as though Patrizio Capelli's as well from what T4 has stated.



Again, I just want to re-iterate that these are all just in my experience, which doesn't mean that there aren't other inkjet printed silks with more colour migration to the rear, I just have never seen them.

Jason

It is pretty much the same as T4Phage’s post about the difference between inkjet and silkscreened that he posted in the Cappelli thread and which has been quoted in my earlier post here. It is also commensurate with the explanation given by other experts, some mentioned in earlier posts here above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

If you get a chance to ask, make sure he understands that you mean a bright white of bleached silk, not just the raw silk color with the dye not saturated all the way through. I've been told that silk needs to be bleached before inkjetting but not block printing. Maybe it's technically possible to bleach silk and then block print onto it, and if you have the right combination of silk, print, and dye, it won't bleed through, even if that's not the way it would have commonly been done in the past.

According to the experts that I have heard so far, silk screening results in color migration to the back side. And saying a silk screened tie will not have a white back, unless only very very light colours have been used. All in line with this explanation by Jason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by C&A View Post

Just caught up on this. That's a very clear post. Just one question, do you think it is possible for silk screened ties to have white backs and no colour migration to the rear?.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Carter View Post

No not really. The pressure that the squeegee puts on the screen to force the ink through generally is enough for the colour, especially dark colours to show through on the rear. In saying that, too much pressure even with modern polyester screens can then tear the screen, which makes a big mess, but with balanced pressure and correct ink coverage then the ink migration to the rear is very good. Hope that helps.

You might be interested to know that now I have a relationship with Adamley (or hadamley) next season I'll be looking at sourcing all of my Macclesfield silks directly with them which will all be screen printed not inkjet.

As you can see from the pictures uploaded by T4Phage in the Cappelli thread the colour somewhat shines through and there may be some colour migration to the back when using inkjet printing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post

9uoy8i.jpg

zjc9b4.jpg

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cappelli says
it is very easy
to recognize
silks printed
in this new
digital manner
by looking at
teh back
Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post

2u92t5z.jpg

149mweu.jpg

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are yours
real vintage
or inkjet
italian
or
english....


Now it would be nice if Gianni Cerutti could explain what ancient technique was used to arrive at the white back vintage silks he is offering.

Anyway, despite the strong aversion against inkjet printed silks he voiced earlier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianni Cerutti View Post

here these are some of our vintage fabrics. Look at the colors and patterns. And all of them are still being printed many years ago. We have only vintage fabrics.

I just can not touch a modern silk. Today almost all digital prints. And the soul and life of the silk loses all with digital printing.

I believe that he recently changed his tune, saying that from the outset his selection also included inkjet printed silks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianni Cerutti View Post

1) my fabrics are vintage for the 90% and the 10 % of my fabrics are historical reproductions . I always say this in each interwe and to my costumers.
5) I consider a vintage fabrics when it's almost 20 years old.
6) The fabrics with white back aren't always inkjet print. For example I have some vintage fabrics hand printed that have 50/60 years old and their withe back. So should I delete them? Absolutly no! There are too BEAUTIFUL !
8) Someone tell that the inkjet fabrics are cheap. Isn't true! Because everything dipends on the quality of fabrics and the print. There are some inkjet fabrics that cost more than hand print fabrics.

9) the inkjet can be already considered vintage because the first inkjet prints were 20 years ago.

Now the 1 million $ question is how Gianni himself differentiates between his white backed inkjet printed silks and the white backed vintage silks. Moreover, how he is able to pinpoint the actual year of production of his vintage silks as he has been doing in numerous of his posts. Gianni Cerutti and the blogger that met him in London seem to indicate it can be done by touching the fabric.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ammanati View Post

There was one person, I do not remember styleforum's name, who had a tie he got from New&Lingwood and almost identical from Passaggio Cravatte (red-ish madder print silk). The design was identical. How can you tell which fabric is vintage then was the question. Obviously it was difficult only by looking at the ties. However, the difference occur when you touch both - vintage was so much more softer! You can't be wrong when actually feeling the fabric. Moreover, the handprinted tie (by PC) had a very minor imperfections in terms of print (tiny white places at the edge of background and pattern) - which suggests it was done by hand. New&Lingwood tie didn't have that

I find it very hard to believe, this story of age detectors in the fingertips, but maybe I’m just being skeptical….. Overall I’m pretty skeptical though about Gianni Cerutti’s knowledge about fabrics, which was exemplified by identifying 5-10 year old English silks he sold in 2011 as 70 y/o Italian silks. And also seems to be the impression agjiffy got when he bought some fabric in Milan with Gianni Cerutti.
Quote:
Originally Posted by agjiffy View Post

Before his post, I was hopeful that Gianni couldn't tell a vintage fabric from a newer one. That seemed like a logical and benign answer. When I was in Milan Gianni was kind enough to accompany me to il vecchio drappiere. It was a kind gesture (I suppose he may have gotten something for bringing a customer there as that wouldn't be out of the ordinary, but he actually walked a great distance with me and I really took it as a sincere desire to help). Anyway, I bought a fabric that I liked. I didn't think it was vintage (the fabric is from the Eurotex kashian book, which still exists). Gianni said he thought it was about 50 years old. I suppose that is possible. I think they had super wools in the 1960s and eurotex was around then. But the fabric didn't, and still doesn't, seem vintage to me and it is definitely a fabric that is still in production. So I thought maybe Gianni just didn't know what was vintage and that perhaps he just assumed everything at il vecchio was old.

But the post he made above is so internally inconsistent (not to mention the glaring problems that claghorn's post illustrates) that i can no longer give Gianni the benefit of the doubt. I hope Gianni will take the time to answer my very reasonable question above but I doubt it. Absent and explanation, I'd never buy one of his ties again.
post #103 of 333
Anyone tried to conduct radiocarbon dating on he tie fabrics yet? Maybe that's an objective way to determine the age of the fabrics.

Or that's not kosher either?
post #104 of 333

I don't have a pony in this race. I do have a PC tie, but I bought it second hand, and I didn't buy it because it was vintage (though it is...I think. No white back). I'd be...content...with Gianni at least changing his first post to reflect the more accurate description of his silks which he recently provided. I said it in that thread, and I just want to say it here. Bare minimum, I don't think anyone can dispute that to be the right thing to do.

post #105 of 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

"Mr. Maresca, I am Francesco. Speak to me please of the history of the inkjet, which cannot be vintage, with the white backside."

"The first inkjet production began at Como in the 90s, the end of the 90s. It's about 15 years that they have been experimenting with this, even less. At the beginning, it was not very trustworthy, but now they realize interesting designs, with contrast - not, certainly, at the level of a block-printed silk. But for vintage, you couldn't mean anything but a block-printed silk. And certainly, a block-printed silk, (something I don't understand...I think he says "through a phase of corrosion") cannot leave a white backside - it is incompatible."

It continues from there to talk about inkjet-printed grenadine, but this seems the most relevant part.


Corrosion with now banned on EU agressive chemicals is the old process of stamp. That is what he said to me on the audio.
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