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new ties -- passagio - Page 6

post #76 of 332

 

I love paisley. In fact there I wanted to show 2 vintage very interesting. Both have yet to be hand-printed many years ago. In my thread you will see them in a while even finished .. I'm finishing them just now.

What do you think?

post #77 of 332

 

And here's yet another vintage silk hand-printed many years ago in Italy.

2 WEEKS AGO I FOUND MANY OF THE THIRST VINTAGE NEW 1940-1950.

And what you see is one that I found these new

 

post #78 of 332

 

And here's another one of our bespoke grenadine ancient fould 7 IN ONLY 2 PIECES OF SILK. We made it without getting all internal and all hemmed by hand like 100 years ago.

post #79 of 332

 

And here comes another one of our bespoke vintage. It is a fuchsia really electric and very dandy ... is seen almost even at night =)

 

As you can see everything is unlined and all hemmed by hand. This is a vintage silk in

post #80 of 332

 

And here is our last bespoke vintage ties carried out in three Foulds. It is a vintage jacquard with more than 35 years of his life on his shoulders! is always all unlined and all hemmed by hand.

post #81 of 332
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by emptym View Post

...... Again, I'm not siding with Gianni. I just want to make sure everything's accurate. Personally, my money's on T4 knowing more than anyone else about what's been going on. At the very least, I agree w/ Claghorn that the first post should be amended to reflect Gianni's recent claim that 90% of his fabrics are vintage, not all of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post

several months ago
i was introduced to teh
owner of 'passagio cravatte'
another maker of bespoke ties
who specialises in 'brighter'
prints and wovens with a 'vintage feel'

the owner also had a few
vintage silks and wools
which i subsequently ordered
and received.
....
Quote:
Originally Posted by poorsod View Post

My understanding is that in the beginning, T4phage brought Passaggio Cravette into the forum limelight as a producer of "vintage feel" ties with some in vintage silks and wools.

http://www.styleforum.net/t/279022/new-ties/0_30
From that original thread, it seemed to me that T4phage and C&A were the original standard bearers for Passaggio Cravatte.

What happened? How did it go from mostly "vintage feel" ties to almost 100% vintage ties......
very g00d eye
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claghorn View Post

I'm guessing that T4 and C&A weren't duped but felt that others may have been after GC started presenting the majority of his wares (and in the initial post, all) of as vintage?

and so it goes
post #82 of 332

Posts edited as per Fok's request in post #86. If further edits are required, please let me know. I do not have the intention to violate any SF rules.


Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post



very g00d eye
and so it goes

Here are my posts from the inkjet thread and the Passaggio thread. I suggest others quote theirs. Seems a good starting point to continue the discussion. I will add some additional information that was not yet included in these two posts later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by C&A 

Ok guys, I warn you this will be a somewhat lengthy story. Sorry for that but I also did a management summary.

MANAGEMENT SUMMARY:

- Gianni Cerutti visited Patrizio Cappelli’s own workshop in 2011.
- It appears now that Gianni Cerutti's offerings that he showed us at the end of 2011 included fabrics that are exactly the same as Patrizio Cappelli also offered and offers. These were mainly English from Vanners and Adamley. Some of these fabrics were designs exclusively made for Patrizio Cappelli.
- Patrizio Cappelli fired an employee that stole fabrics from his workshop.
- these English fabrics were approximately 5-10 years old. Gianni Cerutti has passed them off as ancient Italian fabrics. In fact Gianni Cerutti recently stated he never bought any Adamley fabrics;
- not only has Gianni Cerutti been lying about the provenance of these fabrics, he has also been willfully passing of a recent Garza as an old now extinct fabric;
- and has been selling inkjet printed silk as vintage fabric. Which has been identified as inkjet printed by quite a few authorities in the field;
- a lot of his current stock is end run designs by Greiff for houses like Gucci that he gets at seteria canepa who are big on inkjet printing;
- Whether you like the fabrics Gianni Cerutti currently has on offer is a matter of personal taste, and you may be willing to pay the premium he is charging, but it cannot be denied that Gianni Cerutti has been lying and bullshitting and even when caught red handed decided to continue with this practice.
- Saying that, we should hope that at the very best he is bullshitting, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he simply doesn’t know the difference between Italian and English silks, or inkjet and silk screen. This probably is even worse for someone in his trade.


FULL STORY

Well, it all started with a pretty innocent question in Gianni Cerutti’s thread. I saw him posting a tie that I knew all too well

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianni Cerutti View Post




And here's another one of our bespoke vintage ties at the neck of a great friend of mine customer! We have always done all unlined and all hemmed by hand.

first I thought it was probably a Google translate thing, blaming it on the language barrier and, that he was actually calling this a bespoke VINTAGE tie. I thought he might be referring to the way it was made. you know his standard bladibla ‘all made by hand like 100 years ago’.

Incidentally I actually discussed this exact tie with my friend lookingtoimprove when we met up at our tailors a few weeks before that. he mentioned it was one of his favorites and he would like to get a similar one at some point in time.

Lookingtoimprove and I commissioned this garza to be woven via Gianni when we met him when he had just started his tie venture. we were introduced to him via Riccardo Bestetti, the shoemaker. when we ordered our ties, Gianni told us he (the mill) needed a minimum of two ties. I was under the impression that the length that would be commissioned would be only sufficient for two ties. but Gianni must have had some spare meters left, since he at least made one more tie from this silk as shown in the picture he uploaded of his happy friend-customer. btw, I now understand mills will generally require a 6 meter minimum (sometimes even 18 meters) which is sufficient for 5 7-fold ties. I am totally ok with there being more than two of the same ties by the way.

I posted a comment in the thread referring to the special run he did for us, hoping that he would clarify the matter and confirm it is was not an ancient thirst.
Quote:
Originally Posted by C&A View Post

That's indeed a nice tie! Is it the same as the special run you did for Looking to Improve and myself about two years ago ?

Gianni Cerutti then put up a smoke curtain and replied
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianni Cerutti View Post

Thank you so much for your kind post. It is the same grenadine I had done two years ago for you. It was the last piece and now it's finished. I find it always wonderful and important. If I had to find a name to call this the grenadine princess.

suggesting this was some sort of extinct fabric, whilst clearly knowing this was one of the many patters from the books of seteria bianchi which can be remade anytime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by C&A View Post

Hi Gianni , yes I recall you showing us this great pattern -a true princess indeed- and several others beautiful garza patterns from the Bianchi garza book, or was it Fermo Fossati, which could all be remade. Would be great if we could do another rerun, in another color or a different pattern, mayby a special one for styleforum?

It is a great tie. Especially for summer.

he clearly wasn't interested in a re-run because he totally ignored the matter and went in his standard ‘ancient thirst’/’complimenti’/’molto elegante’/’gladiator two tone’ mode.

because this left me pretty puzzled I got on the phone with the mill to see whether these re-runs were still possible. sure, no probs! I sent them a picture of the brown/orange garza pattern and they then very kindly sent clippings of all the non-proprietary colourways.

grenadine_zps0bb336e5.jpg

at the same time I contacted Patrizio Cappelli where I get another fair share of my ties and he agreed to make the ties and order the silk from the mill provided there would be interest in at least 6 meters. the interest check I did here http://www.styleforum.net/t/387153/vintage-like-special-run-garza-to-be-made-by-patrizio-cappelli-3-colourways-already-good-to-go/0_30 and order with the mill has been placed by Patrizio Cappelli for three colourways

you all probably heard of Patrizio Cappelli. For those who haven’t, he is the tie maker that is not honestly paying affiliate vendor fees which would allow him to spam the forum with nonsense and bullshit, but nonetheless gets some nice spinoff from all of this and sometimes even favorable reviews without asking for them. A friendly reference was made to him here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianni Cerutti View Post

[…]

Meanwhile, tomorrow alert directly administer Styleforum because I noticed that there are some people with multiple accounts playing criticize honest craftsmen.

They do this because behind this there are economic interests to their advantage. And this I speak from personal experience, I've lived on my skin. And of course because I have proof . And I will say that there are also brands that do not advertise and write quietly . While I honest to pay for advertising.

when telling him the story about the garza, Patrizio Cappelli asked me whether I recalled he had already warned me for Passaggio about two years ago when he saw me wearing the first tie I got from Passaggio

f8b01865_zps650db308.jpg

IMG00210-20120103-1309_zps06dadd3e.jpg

When he warned me in 2012 I believe he did not do it in an attempt to make sure I would only get his ties from then on (because he knows I also get ties from tie-your-tie, marinella, antonio muro – who makes the rtw ties for leonardo bugelli which is one of the shirtmakers I use, and some others) but really because he was upset.

at the time I took his comment with a grain of salt, and thought that what he was saying was that Passaggio was copying him and he didn't like it. At that point I didn’t discuss the matter with Patrizio Cappelli in any more detail. I probably got distracted by the fabrics in his shop and he didn’t push any further. but now that we were talking about the special garza run he explained that the cashmere pow is a fabric that got ‘lost’ in his workshop. and that it was in fact not the only piece of fabric that went missing.

Patrizio told me he uses two workshops. One is his own. The other he uses when there is overflow and he gets his ties made there to the exact same specifications as he would if they are made in his own workshop. The ‘overflow workshop’ is also used by other prominent brands [think rubinacci etc.] for their bespoke ties. This incidentally is also the workshop that makes (made?) the Passaggio ties.

At some point in 2011 when Gianni Cerutti was just starting out, or maybe just before that, he visited Patrizio’s own workshop [Gianni Cerutti at that point was still working as a fashion journalist, his initial profession]. This is where Patrizio Cappelli stored the fabrics in question.

A bit later - maybe coincidentally - Patrizio Cappelli found out that one of his employees had been stealing fabric from him. The employee was laid off by Patrizio Cappelli when he found out.

These were among the fabrics that went missing in Patrizio’s workshop:

img289_zps431ed682.jpg

img288_zpsbd389461.jpg

img287_zps4502bd71.jpg

img286_zps077cbef9.jpg


When first meeting Gianni Cerutti in Holland in 2012 we were pretty pleased with his offerings. And we bought quite a few. He told us he specialized in old fabrics of which only a few meters were left and newly made Garza. We ordered the special Garza run, some green Garza scarves and quite a few of his ‘ancient fabrics’ which for a substantial part now turn out to be made from fabric that is exactly the same as the lost Cappelli fabrics. Which Patrizio Cappelli tells us are all English fabrics approximately 5-10 years old.

As I didn’t go into detail about the lost fabrics when talking to Patrizio Cappelli back in 2012 I didn’t terminate my client relationship with Gianni Cerutti there and then ,but instead kept ordering ties, pocket squares and scarves from Gianni Cerutti up until as recent as this spring. I did even recommend him to quite a few friends. I did note that over time there were less and less design that grabbed my attention compared to his offerings the first time around. But that is really a matter of taste. Still in between the hundreds of fabrics I could always find a few.

Apart from these fabrics – with Patrizio Cappelli’s name tag on them – getting ‘lost’, what is really an issue, is that Gianni Cerutti is just bullshitting his customers trying to make them believe these 5-10 year old English fabrics are ancient Italian fabrics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post

halp guise
i want to know
if this is real
or fake....

this tie
the seller told
me the fabric
had 78 years
behind teh shoulder
made by italian
ancient weaver
always by hand job:

30j0jft.jpg


but i found out
original
was made not so
ancient
only 10 years
behind its wet ears
because it is engrish

2w5nm7d.jpg


halp....
did i buy original
only one made before
it was extingushied fake italian
ancient fabric tie?

or did i buy
fake
real modern engish
only weaver in teh
world who blockprints
this pattern?
Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post

halp again guise....

i haz another 2
from teh same person
who said is
two very vintage
very italian
old hand prints
of Italian many years ago

2cwkawg.jpg

9htp38.jpg


but.....
again i saw
the similar fabrics
made very recently
(not so many years
on his shoulders
only 5)
made by engrish
hadamley people
with original real
patterns and designs.....

2wgw2f8.jpg

2u62wsj.jpg



do i have
original
fake italian fabric
of many years ago
and now extingushed
tie fabric and the only
moster left is in pictures?

or do i have
a fake
but real
modern english
hadamley with
the holliday and brown
proprietory patterns
from teh archives
fabric tie?


This can only mean that

“1) he doesn’t have any understanding of the fabrics that he is selling”, and/or

“2) he is just bullshitting all his friends-customers like he did about the brown/orange Garza passing is off as a distinct thirst never to see the face of the earth again”.

either way he is lying through his teeth.


Now the other funny thing was that a few weeks ago my tailor came to visit me all the way from Como. he is a no name local tailor with a small shop mainly catering for locals in the Como-Milano region and doing some bespoke work for a few high end fashion brands with flagstore shops in Milano (e.g. prada etc.; they apparently offer bespoke to some of their very rich clientele, think Russian millionaires/billionaires). He generally tells us some funny stories about having to make up 5 similar vicuna jackets for each of the homes the typical prada bespoke client owns.

anyway, back to Passaggio and Gianni Cerutti. when my tailor was at my home and we did a prova and I asked him to make a few alterations to some other suits and I opened up my wardrobe door. While I was busy going in and out of suits he casually went through some of my ties.

just making conversation he asked whether I could tell the difference between inkjet and silkscreen printed ties. And I told him no. and he then showed me the back of one of my Passaggio ties

26404573111_zps85c571e4.jpg

And told me that this was an example of inkjet printed silk. I told him that this would surprise me as it was sold to me as “an ancient thirst with many years on its shoulder”. He told me he was very sure this was a quite recent inkjet printed fabric. He told me it was most likely made by seteria canepa. http://www.canepa.it/ . Who use the inkjet printing technique a lot

Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post

=D

seteria canepa
is teh largest silk printers
in italy
and utilize silkscreens
and inkjet
read here
they have 10 masheens
for teh digital printing
more info here

eg:

canepaTessitura02.jpg

canepaTessitura.jpg

canepaTessitura03.jpg


as a private individual
you can go to their
outlet
and buy printed silks
and end bolts
and many are
funky old designs
and make
your own ties...
canepa outlet

And identified a few other inkjet printed ties and mentioned that a very good fried of him actually works at canepa and he knows for a fact that Gianni Cerutti is a regular in their outlet store. where Gianni Cerutti buys end pieces of designs by Greiff for houses like Gucci. He phoned up his friend at canepa there and then and he confirmed. The funny video cerutti/dog/tomato footage I uploaded when answering a question from P-K-L
Quote:
Originally Posted by P-K-L View Post

[…]

Ah, the outlet... who is a regular? Do you have bulletproof evidence? Video surveillance footage?

Always thank you dear!

Has unfortunately been axed by the moderators. It was probably not in good taste to have a bit of fun at the expense of an affiliate vendor. Apologies for that.

By the way, my tailor also added Gianni Cerutti made quite a mess in his home market and told me to ask Gianni Cerutti [in the words of my tailor: the scam artist] whether he already fixed the tie he made for the Milanese shoemaker antonio pio mele https://www.google.nl/url?q=http://vimeo.com/45562850&sa=U&ei=Udd1U-O7EoK8ObnTgJgJ&ved=0CE8QtwIwCg&usg=AFQjCNELJBwaS1fQHK_sLuuLN5kbZXsvmg

Intrigued by the inkjet story I removed the tags from the above tie and gave it to a friend who was going to Napoli a few days later to get some stuff from his tailor asking him to show it to Patrizio Cappelli and ask him whether it was indeed an inkjet printed silk.

Patrizio Cappelli also confirmed the tie to be inkjet printed, upon which I made this post in Gianni Cerutti’s thread


Quote:
Originally Posted by C&A 
P-K-L , your post made me check out the Cappelli thread.

What triggered me there was the recent discussion and explanation about inkjet printed silks:
Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post

i had an interesting
conversation with patrizio
about vintage silks
and sellers
and inkjets
and silkscreens

inkjet printing
is a recent
development
and a much cheaper
way of printing silks
and also
gives the ability to print
smaller runs
although it is not
as nice
as a silkscreened
fabric
it is easy
to distingush

nor would you
say an inkjet
fabric is a vintage
thing
unless one was
born yesterday.

also patrizio
mentioned how
it is relatively easy
to tell an english
vs italian woven
tie silk
by the way the silk
is woven.

hopefully it is visible
from teh photos
below

2u92t5z.jpg

149mweu.jpg

2pqu9g0.jpg

2lri3a.jpg


are yours
real vintage
or inkjet
italian
or
english....
Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post

not always
there are also
heavier italian
silks..
i note
that english silks
for silkscreening
tend to be finished
with a drier hand
while italians
tend to finish
with a 'silkier' hand


here are moar
italian inkjet samples
that patrizio cappelli
was showing
in various weaves
of silk

9uoy8i.jpg

zjc9b4.jpg

1z1ydg0.jpg

cappelli says
it is very easy
to recognize
silks printed
in this new
digital manner
by looking at
teh back




Never ever considered the option before that some of my Passaggio ties could be made from inkjet printed silks given that they explicitly sold as being vintage.

I checked out my ties and pocket squares and I am now wondering whether I have actually bought some inkjet printed silks instead of true vintage ones. For example this one:
Quote:
Originally Posted by C&A View Post

Some more:

8e7a31df.jpg

Quickly went through this thread to see whether it is a one-off. But it seems to me there might be quite a few others. To quote just a few:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tchoy View Post

I posted this on Passagio official thread as well.

AppleMark
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhiloVance View Post

I actually did an interview with Gianni a few weeks ago at An Uptown Dandy. Despite the language barrier - and his English is certainly better than my Italian - his passion for bespoke tiemaking is readily apparent. I'll be posting a review of a few of his ties in the next week or so - they are real works of art. The vintage seven fold is really something to see!



There's some basic info here that will probably help those interested in placing an order:

http://uptowndandy.blogspot.com/2013/09/an-interview-with-gianni-cerutti-of.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianni Cerutti View Post




And here's another one of our bespoke tie. It is always a vintage silk printed still hand made in 7 ancient folds all unlined and all hemmed by hand as 100 years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleav View Post

Gentlemen,

I took delivery of a parcel from Italy today.

On opening I have to say the contents took my breath away, please see below.

I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for the way that Gianni runs his business. He runs it with a passion that is reflected in their craftsmanship.

He is a pleasure to work with, always attentive and delivers the goods.

I have one more tie to come and needless to say I will be ordering again.

Gianni, Grazie, mille grazie


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianni Cerutti View Post




And here's another one of our 6 folds throughout the entire unlined and hemmed by hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianni Cerutti View Post




And here comes the old 7 folds open antique. This is the original model of the early 1900s. And as you can see with the interlining is only the height of the node and is unlined and throughout the whole hemmed by hand. And of course it is always a vintage fabric and a tie bespoke.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianni Cerutti View Post




And here is another bespoke vintage ties. It is a 7 folds ancient unlined and throughout the entire hemmed hand as 100 years ago. It is always a vintage silk hand-printed many years ago.

I really hope this is all just a big misunderstanding and that Gianni actually knows what he is selling, so we can keep enjoying our vintage ties. But P-K-L's post about the David Evans hopsack makes me wonder….


Instead of addressing the matter in a straight forward manner, Gianni dodged the subject, ignored my post completely, and started slandering others, playing innocent and acting like a victim

And continuing to blatantly lie to others when enquiring whether their ties may be made from inkjet printed silk. For instance the answer he gave to tchoy about one of his ties:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianni Cerutti View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tchoy 
These are some of the ties that I've received from Gianni recently. I too have been following the Cappelli thread and the post T4 made.

I've always have good dealings with Gianni, sometimes it's hard with to understand him but he tries hard. I had a issue with one of my ties few month after I ordered it and he quickly replaced it at his cos without question.

The ties I received are always beautifully made and silks are lovely. I must admit I know very little about vintage silks or ink jet printed silks.

Looking at my 3 ties below the middle one does have a different back to other two.

May be Gianni can enlighten us with what the differences are.







Thank you very much for your kind post. I really appreciate it. And thank you for your honesty.


Meanwhile, I am really very happy to know that you like my tie, really. And kudos as always to your blog. I love it.


Coming to the three ties all of your photos is very simple. These three vintage silks printed still hand many years ago. The effect is different because all three hand prints have been made on a basis of different silk. And on every silk ink releases a different effect. This is both in front and in back. And this is normal.


Whatever you need are at your disposal.

In the words of Patrizio Cappelli – who of course also reads all this now that we got him involved – this is A MAXIMUM LIE. It is probably not a real expression in English, but it is in Italian.


Apart from Cappelli also some resident experts have also confirmed that most, if not all the ties I quoted, are inkjet printed. Some very plainly. Some a bit more indirect. But I can fully understand that other affiliate vendors are not jumping up and down to get dragged into this mud fight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Carter View Post

It's a shame but there's a few certainties of facts that can't be misconstrued in language barriers etc. I've got 5 years experience in the screen printing industry in a former job (not clothing related) so I know a bit about the pluses and minuses of it vs inkjet. I'll just share my thoughts here as we are all friends and to not get involved on someone else's affiliate thread.

1) there is no doubt that all of those fabrics that PKL quoted are not vintage and are inkjet printed. They are easy to tell because of the white backing on them. Nothing wrong with that, many of my printed silks are as well but there is something wrong with passing them off as vintage and charging 2-3 times the price many other makers charge.

2) in the inkjet vs screen printing debate, screen printing tends to give a deeper colour as the dye goes deeper in to the fabric but it has it's downsides too, such as achieving good registration (lining the colours up) as you can get movement between screens which throws the pattern off. Inkjet has essentially perfect registration, but the colours don't penetrate as deep. That said I've had and continue to have some really beautiful inkjet fabrics, as does capelli et al.

Inkjet also let's you do shorter runs of fabric so can be a big advantage to smaller makers like myself, but it actually gets more expensive than screen printing for larger runs of fabric.

Anyway I hope the Gianni does actually address some of those questions aimed at him in a bit more depth than he has so far I.e not at all. Both for the sake of his business and the people with pitchforks ready.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Hober View Post

"what i call 'white'
is the term cappelli
uses
but it does not mean
virgin white
none of the inkjets
that i saw was pure
snow white
like the photo
you showed.
i would have called that
'white'

edit:
fuji lens
but using
nikon lenscap"



I have a Konica-Minolta camera with a Nikon lenscap.

My Konica-Minolta was the last one made before Sony bought the camera division.

So when my lens cap broke I had few choices.

After I finish my building project (It never seems to end...) I will buy a new camera and give Sam the old Konica Minolta.

My current thoughts are that the new lens will be more important than the camera.

I find myself constantly trying to understand what Italians (and Thai) mean when they speak English...

So I am not surprised at the difference in terms...
Quote:
Originally Posted by conradwu View Post

Go back and read the last 5-10 pages of the thread in question. Henry Carter members explained it quite well.

Now you may like the fabrics Gianni Cerutti currently has on offer, that’s a matter of personal taste, and you may be willing to pay the premium he is charging, that is a matter of priorities and everybody is free to start a business relationship with whoever they like. But it CANNOT be denied that Gianni Cerutti has been lying, cheating and bullshitting and even when caught red handed decided to continue with this practice.

his most recent claim, that he now repeats time and time again
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianni Cerutti View Post

Thank you very much for your kind message. And thank you for your good question.

Meanwhile, I am very happy to know that you like my bespoke vintage neckties .

For 99.9% of mine are really thirsty vintage hand printed many years ago . I think that vintage silks of the early 1900s. And all are endangered . Also because I hate digital prints . In fact, we're not like all brands. I am more an antique shop because I live in search of antique textiles . And I enjoy that. In fact I do not have seasonal collections . I do not have 100 ties all the same. Why do you hate can find 100 other people that have my same tie .

[…]


may be true, but that would mean he has done away with a lot of his stock. The end of roll fabrics he bought at canepa surely aren’t 40 years or more as per his own definition of ancient.

For the record: I am not saying that none of his fabrics are vintage, and I must admit that I still like a few of the designs he carries, but I will not order from him again, and I think after this post – or maybe even before that – he also doesn’t want me as a client-friend anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by C&A 
P-K-L , your post made me check out the Cappelli thread.

What triggered me there was the recent discussion and explanation about inkjet printed silks:
Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post

i had an interesting
conversation with patrizio
about vintage silks
and sellers
and inkjets
and silkscreens

inkjet printing
is a recent
development
and a much cheaper
way of printing silks
and also
gives the ability to print
smaller runs
although it is not
as nice
as a silkscreened
fabric
it is easy
to distingush

nor would you
say an inkjet
fabric is a vintage
thing
unless one was
born yesterday.

also patrizio
mentioned how
it is relatively easy
to tell an english
vs italian woven
tie silk
by the way the silk
is woven.

hopefully it is visible
from teh photos
below

2u92t5z.jpg

149mweu.jpg

2pqu9g0.jpg

2lri3a.jpg


are yours
real vintage
or inkjet
italian
or
english....
Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post

not always
there are also
heavier italian
silks..
i note
that english silks
for silkscreening
tend to be finished
with a drier hand
while italians
tend to finish
with a 'silkier' hand


here are moar
italian inkjet samples
that patrizio cappelli
was showing
in various weaves
of silk

9uoy8i.jpg

zjc9b4.jpg

1z1ydg0.jpg

cappelli says
it is very easy
to recognize
silks printed
in this new
digital manner
by looking at
teh back

Never ever considered the option before that some of my Passaggio ties could be made from inkjet printed silks given that they explicitly sold as being vintage.

I checked out my ties and pocket squares and I am now wondering whether I have actually bought some inkjet printed silks instead of true vintage ones. For example this one:
Quote:
Originally Posted by C&A View Post

Some more:

8e7a31df.jpg
Quickly went through this thread to see whether it is a one-off. But it seems to me there might be quite a few others. To quote just a few:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tchoy View Post

I posted this on Passagio official thread as well.

AppleMark
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhiloVance View Post

I actually did an interview with Gianni a few weeks ago at An Uptown Dandy. Despite the language barrier - and his English is certainly better than my Italian - his passion for bespoke tiemaking is readily apparent. I'll be posting a review of a few of his ties in the next week or so - they are real works of art. The vintage seven fold is really something to see!



There's some basic info here that will probably help those interested in placing an order:

http://uptowndandy.blogspot.com/2013/09/an-interview-with-gianni-cerutti-of.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianni Cerutti View Post




And here's another one of our bespoke tie. It is always a vintage silk printed still hand made in 7 ancient folds all unlined and all hemmed by hand as 100 years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleav View Post

Gentlemen,

I took delivery of a parcel from Italy today.

On opening I have to say the contents took my breath away, please see below.

I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for the way that Gianni runs his business. He runs it with a passion that is reflected in their craftsmanship.

He is a pleasure to work with, always attentive and delivers the goods.

I have one more tie to come and needless to say I will be ordering again.

Gianni, Grazie, mille grazie



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianni Cerutti View Post




And here's another one of our 6 folds throughout the entire unlined and hemmed by hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fassbinder View Post

I received four new ties today from Gianni. I selected the fabrics based on photos so there is always the element of surprise seeing and feeling the ties in person for the first time. I am really enjoying how these turned out and am looking forward to wearing them. As usual they are very well made ties. All are three fold construction.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianni Cerutti View Post




And here comes the old 7 folds open antique. This is the original model of the early 1900s. And as you can see with the interlining is only the height of the node and is unlined and throughout the whole hemmed by hand. And of course it is always a vintage fabric and a tie bespoke.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianni Cerutti View Post




And here is another bespoke vintage ties. It is a 7 folds ancient unlined and throughout the entire hemmed hand as 100 years ago. It is always a vintage silk hand-printed many years ago.

I really hope this is all just a big misunderstanding and that Gianni actually knows what he is selling, so we can keep enjoying our vintage ties. But P-K-L's post about the David Evans hopsack makes me wonder….

Edited by C&A - 6/11/14 at 4:48am
post #83 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by P-K-L View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-K-L View Post




Dear Gianni, I just came across this very beautiful tie - made from a fantastic fabric!

Can you please tell us a bit more about it? Who wove the fabric? How old is it? How was it printed?

Thank you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

Do you know who made it? I'm an avid fan! Every color works and such a great design.
Can you ask the pperson who sold it to you? He may have some left lying around?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianni Cerutti View Post

Thank you for your interest. This fabric did you find you on the web and you did the first post, thank you.

This is an Italian fabric and printed in Italy. But if you want I can do to make a world exclusive for you and a few others. I try to feel the weaver if he can play as well as he was. Of course, it will not be a reproduction and that of 70 years ago. But I would always print from the only lab that still print as 150 years ago still by hand. is the only one who remained in Italy.

What do you think? If you like it so much I may make an exception to make you happy and a few others.


Gianni, I am curious.
You state in the post above that this fabric is Italian.

Are you 100% sure that this fabric is italian and as old as you say?

The post by T4phage below states that this very fabric has been created by David Evans.

How are you going to reproduce anything that was initially produced by a company that ceased to exist? See your (spoilered) quote below:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by P-K-L View Post




Dear Gianni, I just came across this very beautiful tie - made from a fantastic fabric!

Can you please tell us a bit more about it? Who wove the fabric? How old is it? How was it printed?

Thank you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

Do you know who made it? I'm an avid fan! Every color works and such a great design.
Can you ask the pperson who sold it to you? He may have some left lying around?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianni Cerutti View Post

Thank you for your interest. This fabric did you find you on the web and you did the first post, thank you.

This is an Italian fabric and printed in Italy. But if you want I can do to make a world exclusive for you and a few others. I try to feel the weaver if he can play as well as he was. Of course, it will not be a reproduction and that of 70 years ago. But I would always print from the only lab that still print as 150 years ago still by hand. is the only one who remained in Italy.

What do you think? If you like it so much I may make an exception to make you happy and a few others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianni Cerutti View Post

Thank you very much for your kind post . The blue and orange fabric that you like will be a reproduction. Because silk vintage original has been over for about 3 years.

I will do play by the same who created many years ago. It will be hand-printed exactly as the image. So the historical reproduction is digitally printed silks as modern . Also because I hate digital printing.

Then, the fabric will be like what you see.

The cost is 30 euro more than the normal bespoke ties . This is because to play you have to trigger a process unique to that silk. So the classic bespoke costs 165 Euros . That 4 Foulds costs 185 Euros . And the 7 folds the ancient coastline 205 EUR .

In any case, I do not want a reproduction of many meters. But I want to give a chance to those who buy to have a unique artifact . In fact, the silk just played only six ties. So from this there are only six people in the world who have this fabric. A I am because I like it so much . While two have already confirmed the order.

THIS FABRIC IS STILL AVAILABLE ONLY 3 TIES

Are you interested ?


Thank you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
patrizio cappelli
recalls with fondness
teh quality and design
and colours
of the now defunct
david evans
and their unique method
of block printing

when david evans
closed shop
their design archives
and pattern blocks
ended up with
adamley


here is a page
from one of patrizio's
archives
all of david evans
silks which patrizio
selected in his own
colorways for
his shop

6z66gh.jpg


silk #1347
in cappelli's
david evans archive
is unique
because it was
a hopsack weave
block printed silk
and the unique
colour combination
was chosen
and ordered
by patrizio cappelli
several years ago Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
ix8ccp.jpg

34h86f6.jpg


unfortunately there
are no more
david evans
fabric in his stock

he had that blue hopsack
along with several others
stored in the workshop
that makes his ties
(along with other
big name neapolitan
brands)
but it 'disappeared'
'vanished'
and now
patrizio stores his
fabrics in his
store


wat een mooie pakken
post #84 of 332
Posts edited as per Fok's request in post #86. If further edits are required, please let me know. I do not have the intention to violate any SF rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C&A View Post

These were among the fabrics that went missing in Patrizio’s workshop:

After the above posts were made some two weeks ago we put together all the photos we took from the samples Gianni showed us end of 2011.

Quite a few have been identified by Patrizio as fabrics that exactly the same as fabrics that he carries or carried. Some of the designs are actually designs made exclusively for Patrizio. Most are English and are from Adamley and Vanners. By the way, according to Gianni Cerutti he has never bought any fabrics from Adamley:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianni Cerutti View Post

11) I never bouthg ADEMLY fabrics! I met the owner only one time in MIlan. He hasn't real vintage fabrics so I heaven' bouthg anything.

Quite surprising that many of these fabrics that Gianni Cerutti showed us at the end of 2011 are in fact Adamley fabrics ???!!! Go figure......

















































Edited by C&A - 5/29/14 at 1:22pm
post #85 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by P-K-L View Post

Gianni, the more I start looking, the more beautiful things I find which have been created with your brilliancy and eyes for beautiful and ancient things!


Can you please tell me if some of these ancient fabrics are still available? How old are they? Are they italian or english made? Incredible beauty...







Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianni Cerutti View Post


Thank you very much for your kind post. I am happy to know that you like my old vintage silks, really. Maybe the yellow is still available. But I need to check because I'm not sure. Both are old hand prints of Italian many years ago. I do not remember the exact date but I'm going to see and I'll tell you.

If it is still available the yellow one you hear?

While the blue one has been over for a long time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianni Cerutti View Post

Sure. A hand print still will be those who have printed more than 70 years ago. That photo was printed again by hand. So nothing digital and chemical. About the print is still the only small artisan Italian press that like 100 years ago.

So are you interested?


Actually, I'm confused. You say these prints are Italian and vintage, while Patrizio says it is English 'hadamley', and ordered much more recently. See below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post

patrizio shows some

pages from his

adamley archive

from about 5 years

ago

of fabrics which

he selected the design

and colourways for

his collection







for example

#6234 in blue

#6236 in bordeux

and

#6254 blue

#6235 light blue

which he ordered

about 5-6yrs

ago




1yad6v.jpg




257om6b.jpg










another page

from his

adamley archive

of 5-6 years

ago:




1685qb6.jpg







a unique

bright yellow madder

#6703

that cappelli ordered

from adamley




an22cp.jpg










when cappelli orders

his silks he chooses

teh colourways

and designs

for his shop.

this fabric then

gets made up

for his ready to wear

collection

some fabric

is usually set

aside for

bespoke orders

and stored in

the workshop

where they are made.




however

due to recent

fabric 'misplacement'

and 'disappearances'

in the workshop

cappelli now

stores his fabric

in his shop

and only sends it

out to get made







fortunately

some ties

which were unsold

after a few seasons

will turn up

in cappelli's outlet

store

such as:




fabric #6234

here

outlet-ZT3.jpg







fabric #6703

here

Twill-silk-printed-112.jpg







so there are

still possibilities

to purchase some

of the older (5-6yrs)

adamley prints
post #86 of 332

Everyone in this thread: if this conversation becomes a shouting match, or a positive feedback loop of the same points over and over again, I wll shut it down.  As I've said before, my interest is in having the forum community engaged in a variety of interesting conversations, rather than focused around one "controversy" that will probably never be resolved to anyone's satisfaction.  My advice to not jeopardize this thread would be to have your say, and then leave it at that.  Once you've made your point, there is no gain to be had to restating it ad nauseum.  That goes for everyone.

 

One thing that has never been allowed, and that we will not allow here, is for one member to accuse another member of actual criminal conduct.  Please edit your posts accordingly, or I will have to delete them in their entirety.

 

Thanks,

 

Fok.

post #87 of 332
Hey Fok, criminal allegations aside, is the seemingly rolling target of what is vintage or not fair game? How about discussing customer service & quality of fabrication in the context of the interwebz proclamations of PC being the new world standard in bespoke neckwear?

Thanks,

G
post #88 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

One thing that has never been allowed, and that we will not allow here, is for one member to accuse another member of actual criminal conduct.  Please edit your posts accordingly, or I will have to delete them in their entirety.

There's a non-affiliate thread on the front page right now called "scammer alert," which has been there since at least yesterday, and we've had endless discussions of artisans who haven't delivered after accepting money. So it might be helpful if you could elaborate on the acceptable parameters of that sort of conversation (though this thread probably is not the place for it).
post #89 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

Everyone in this thread: if this conversation becomes a shouting match, or a positive feedback loop of the same points over and over again, I wll shut it down. As I've said before, my interest is in having the forum community engaged in a variety of interesting conversations, rather than focused around one "controversy" that will probably never be resolved to anyone's satisfaction. My advice to not jeopardize this thread would be to have your say, and then leave it at that. Once you've made your point, there is no gain to be had to restating it ad nauseum. That goes for everyone.

One thing that has never been allowed, and that we will not allow here, is for one member to accuse another member of actual criminal conduct. Please edit your posts accordingly, or I will have to delete them in their entirety.

Thanks,

Fok.

Done. If any further edits are required please let me know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

Your opinion has been noted.

fwiw, "forward" to me means onto different topics altogether. The suitability of Gun... check jackets in public settings, whether or not @Parker
or @gdl203
is a better looking man, etc...

I'll amend my statement. If any member here is an expert on vintage fabrics, your firsthand knowledge would be welcomed.

Apart from the experts referred to in my posts another member here had a conversation with Giancarlo Maresca http://www.permanentstyle.co.uk/2012/03/giancarlo-maresca.html. He can be considered an insider I think. He incidentally uses the same tailor as Gianni Cerutti as he and others confirmed in the Pirozzi thread. His statements are based on the pictures he saw of the allegedly inkjet printed ties. I suppose it is allowed to upload it here. It is a typical Italian conversation, not always very to the point, but helpful nonetheless.

post #90 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by C&A View Post

Done. If any further edits are required please let me know.
Apart from the experts referred to in my posts another member here had a conversation with Giancarlo Maresca http://www.permanentstyle.co.uk/2012/03/giancarlo-maresca.html. He can be considered an insider I think. He incidentally uses the same tailor as Gianni Cerutti as he and others confirmed in the Pirozzi thread. His statements are based on the pictures he saw of the allegedly inkjet printed ties. I suppose it is allowed to upload it here. It is a typical Italian conversation, not always very to the point, but helpful nonetheless.

This pretty much proves it.

I am sad, as I paid Gianni a premium for items I was lead to believe were vintage and might not be.
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