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post #10801 of 12096
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post
 

 

Come on. You seem like a pretty smart man, how can you just continue to disregard what I write? Yes, Goodyear welting relies on adhesive for it's overall structure, it has both the adhesive part AND the holes and stitches. If the glue that holds the canvas rib to the insole fails, the shoe will fall a part. If the holes in the canvas rib fails the shoe will fall a part.

In a hand welted construction, you just have the latter, if the holes in the holdfast fails the shoe will fall apart. 

 

And you still disregard the fact that both hand welting and Goodyear welting also are glued between every layer.

 

Try to concentrate when you read this, maybe read it twice or even three times before you reply again, I think that you are capable of understanding.

 

 

The fact that Goodyear copied the hand welting construction to make a cheaper and faster way to produce shoes is so well known that I never thought I had to spell that out. The reason that he copied hand welting is because hand welting is great, yes. It's both correct. 

 

Look, I know you want to try and win the argument and all, but there really isn't anything factually wrong about what I said. You haven't refuted what I said.

 

I initially addressed leetpuma because he seems to be so against goodyear welted shoes due to the adhesion. That's fine. I outlined some pros to the adhesion (more even distribution of force, less stress raisers, etc). There was really nothing incorrect about what I said. I never tried to say goodyear welting is better than hand welting. You assumed I was advocating goodyear welting over hand welting (which I don't because the original last is needed to re-welt a goodyear welted shoe and unnecessary in a hand welted shoe). You are the one who started bringing up the canvas rib or the less thick insoles used in goodyear welted shoes, but none of that actually addresses or refutes the point of my original post.

 

 

The adhesion and different stitched parts in a goodyear welted shoe can fail and so can the extra stitching in the hand welted shoe. Are you trying to say that there are more ways a goodyear welted shoe can fail? Stitching or adhesion? What is your point and what does it have to do with what I originally said? But even that does not really say anything in a vacuum as far as overall durability as the adhesion can be more durable than the stitching, anyway. 

 

 

"The fact that Goodyear copied the hand welting construction to make a cheaper and faster way to produce shoes is so well known that I never thought I had to spell that out. The reason that he copied hand welting is because hand welting is great, yes. It's both correct. "

 

Do I really have to go over this again? The mental gymnastics...ugh. You were originally trying to say there was a reason Goodyear tried using machines to emulate hand welting for a "reason" (implying hand welting is great without anything to back it up). My point is that it is an empty statement, as I don't think durability was his concern as much as it was borrowing the easily replaceable sole from hand welting. Again, this is all speculation. It was also an empty statement in regards to what I was saying. It wasn't about you having to spell out anything. When I brought it up, I was trying to show that you weren't really saying anything with such a fluffy statement/thought. 

 

At the end of the day, it comes down to execution. A well made goodyear welted shoe can outlast a well made hand-welted shoe, and vice versa. A well made hand-welted shoe can easily outlast a poorly executed goodyear welted shoe, and vice versa. 

 

The point is adhesion is not the devil it is made out to be by the likes of DWFII who is just trying to promote his bespoke business and crap on the RTW market. And even the canvas rib, he called it a "gemming." I don't even think I ever heard that word before him referring to the canvas rib as "gemming." Most always just referred to it as a canvas rib or rib (it's possible to use a leather one) before DWFII. Gemming is one of those words (if it is even a real word) that does not sit well on the ear and kind of sounds like "germ," lemming, or something. Clever on the part of DWFII to crap on GWY and to promote his bespoke business--I'll give him that. 

 

Anyway, have a good night. Bedtime. 

post #10802 of 12096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omert4 View Post

Look, I know you want to try and win the argument and all, but there really isn't anything factually wrong about what I said. You haven't refuted what I said.

I initially addressed leetpuma because he seems to be so against goodyear welted shoes due to the adhesion. That's fine. I outlined some pros to the adhesion (more even distribution of force, less stress raisers, etc). There was really nothing incorrect about what I said. I never tried to say goodyear welting is better than hand welting. You äYou are the one who started bringing up the canvas rib or the less thick insoles used in goodyear welted shoes, but none of that actually addresses or refutes the point of my original post.


The adhesion and different stitched parts in a goodyear welted shoe can fail and so can the extra stitching in the hand welted shoe. Are you trying to say that there are more ways a goodyear welted shoe can fail? Stitching or adhesion? What is your point and what does it have to do with what I originally said? But even that does not really say anything in a vacuum as far as overall durability as the adhesion can be more durable than the stitching, anyway. 


"The fact that Goodyear copied the hand welting construction to make a cheaper and faster way to produce shoes is so well known that I never thought I had to spell that out. The reason that he copied hand welting is because hand welting is great, yes. It's both correct. "

Do I really have to go over this again? The mental gymnastics...ugh. You were originally trying to say there was a reason Goodyear tried using machines to emulate hand welting for a "reason" (implying hand welting is great without anything to back it up). My point is that it is an empty statement, as I don't think durability was his concern as much as it was borrowing the easily replaceable sole from hand welting. Again, this is all speculation. It was also an empty statement in regards to what I was saying. It wasn't about you having to spell out anything. When I brought it up, I was trying to show that you weren't really saying anything with such a fluffy statement/thought. 

At the end of the day, it comes down to execution. A well made goodyear welted shoe can outlast a well made hand-welted shoe, and vice versa. A well made hand-welted shoe can easily outlast a poorly executed goodyear welted shoe, and vice versa. 

The point is adhesion is not the devil it is made out to be by the likes of DWFII who is just trying to promote his bespoke business and crap on the RTW market. And even the canvas rib, he called it a "gemming." I don't even think I ever heard that word before him referring to the canvas rib as "gemming." Most always just referred to it as a canvas rib or rib (it's possible to use a leather one) before DWFII. Gemming is one of those words (if it is even a real word) that does not sit well on the ear and kind of sounds like "germ," lemming, or something. Clever on the part of DWFII to crap on GWY and to promote his bespoke business--I'll give him that. 

Anyway, have a good night. Bedtime. 

First I thought that you just deliberately or undeliberately tried to misunderstand everything I wrote, now I realise that the problem is that you don't know how a Goodyear welted shoe is constructed. I realise that when I read the bolded parts above.

There is no extra stitching on a hand welted shoe. Both a hand welted shoe and a Goodyear welted shoe have a welt stitch. The difference is that a Goodyear welted shoe has the welt stitch attached to the canvas rib which is glued to the insole (this method is called gemming yes, it's a well known term used for about 100 years), where as a hand welted shoe has the welt stitch directly to the insole. So YES, a Goodyear welted shoe has two ways two fail here, a hand welted has one.

Now I haven't even brought up (since you seem to be confused quite easily) the fact that the welt stitch in hand welting use lock stitch, which lock every stitch by it self, but a Goodyear machine makes a chain stitch where if one part of the welt stitch fail the hold seam gets loose.

I understood that you didn't claim Goodyear welting was better than hand welting (please stop putting arguments in my mouth which I've never said, you've done it several times), but you brought up a "flaw" in hand welting compared to Goodyear welting which just doesn't exist. I don't want other people here who read that and believe that, stuff on the internet is easily spread and it's better to point out faults directly.
Edited by j ingevaldsson - 6/26/14 at 5:13am
post #10803 of 12096

 

:smarmy: Couldn't help myself.

post #10804 of 12096
Is there any word on when the new Park last will be available?
post #10805 of 12096
If you have one shoe in your rotation, then yes you should be worrying about gemmed vs. non-gemmed. If you have +4, then it becomes a non-issue as natural rotation and good upkeep will ensure long lasting shoes.

FYI, I have made shoes entirely by hand, and while they may have looked nice on the outside, they weren't made well on the inside as I was a novice and made lots of mistakes. Who knows how fast they are pumping out these shoes in China and how high the attention to detail is? That being, even though Meermin makes handwelted shoes, that does not mean that they are being made to the careful attention that say, a Saint Crispin or Bestetti is. Therefore, handwelting = better is not always the case. Don't get me wrong, I think that Meermin are doing a great job by making a great shoe for the price and filling a gap in the market for this type of construction at this price-point, but I would be willing to wager my entire shoe collection that a gemmed Edward Green shoe would last longer than the HW Meermin's if worn by the same person.
post #10806 of 12096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Handmadeshoes View Post

If you have one shoe in your rotation, then yes you should be worrying about gemmed vs. non-gemmed. If you have +4, then it becomes a non-issue as natural rotation and good upkeep will ensure long lasting shoes.

FYI, I have made shoes entirely by hand, and while they may have looked nice on the outside, they weren't made well on the inside as I was a novice and made lots of mistakes. Who knows how fast they are pumping out these shoes in China and how high the attention to detail is? That being, even though Meermin makes handwelted shoes, that does not mean that they are being made to the careful attention that say, a Saint Crispin or Bestetti is. Therefore, handwelting = better is not always the case. Don't get me wrong, I think that Meermin are doing a great job by making a great shoe for the price and filling a gap in the market for this type of construction at this price-point, but I would be willing to wager my entire shoe collection that a gemmed Edward Green shoe would last longer than the HW Meermin's if worn by the same person.

 

Thanks for clearing that up. Many of the debates hinged on the fact that handwelting = Better. Therefore Meermin is better than XYZ makers. 

post #10807 of 12096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Handmadeshoes View Post

If you have one shoe in your rotation, then yes you should be worrying about gemmed vs. non-gemmed. If you have +4, then it becomes a non-issue as natural rotation and good upkeep will ensure long lasting shoes.

FYI, I have made shoes entirely by hand, and while they may have looked nice on the outside, they weren't made well on the inside as I was a novice and made lots of mistakes. Who knows how fast they are pumping out these shoes in China and how high the attention to detail is? That being, even though Meermin makes handwelted shoes, that does not mean that they are being made to the careful attention that say, a Saint Crispin or Bestetti is. Therefore, handwelting = better is not always the case. Don't get me wrong, I think that Meermin are doing a great job by making a great shoe for the price and filling a gap in the market for this type of construction at this price-point, but I would be willing to wager my entire shoe collection that a gemmed Edward Green shoe would last longer than the HW Meermin's if worn by the same person.

 

Thank you for this. That was exactly my point. Hand welting with bad quality control is worse than gemming with good quality control.

post #10808 of 12096
^^^ All above is entirely correct (even the "boring" post smile.gif ) That's why I in this matter try to explain that what I was against was that the OP stated a flaw in the hand welted construction vs Goodyear welted, which wasn't true. I'm not against Goodyear welting.
post #10809 of 12096
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post

^^^ All above is entirely correct (even the "boring" post smile.gif ) That's why I in this matter try to explain that what I was against was that the OP stated a flaw in the hand welted construction vs Goodyear welted, which wasn't true. I'm not against Goodyear welting.

Alright, it's not true!

 

Prove it.

 

Why aren't holes stress raisers and why doesn't adhesion provide for a more even distribution of force from an engineering point of view. 

Do not change the subject and bring up shoes and talk about different parts of the shoe because that would not actually be refuting it. Think about holes vs adhesion outside of shoes and address what I said when I listed some of the pros of adhesion over stitching.

 

If you can't do that, you wasted your time debating nothing but what was going on in your own head.

post #10810 of 12096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omert4 View Post

[Yadda Yadda Yadda]

I give up. It's impressing that you write all that without answering my main question: how can a construction method which relies on stitches to a leather part be exposed for more stress, than a method with the same stitches (just with a less good stitching technique) to a canvas part which is then glued to a leather part? They both have welt stitches (keep apart welt stitch and welt, two different things you know). How come the holes in the Goodyear welted shoe isn't exposed for the same pressure? Please explain that.
post #10811 of 12096
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post


I give up. It's impressing that you write all that without answering my main question: how can a construction method which relies on stitches to a leather part be exposed for more stress, than a method with the same stitches (just with a less good stitching technique) to a canvas part which is then glued to a leather part? They both have welt stitches (keep apart welt stitch and welt, two different things you know). How come the holes in the Goodyear welted shoe isn't exposed for the same pressure? Please explain that.

 

And I give up trying to explain to you that your "main question" is not something I was trying to talk about in the first place. You haven't actually addressed the point of my post.

 

I was purely talking about the pros of adhesion over stitching. I'll link you to it again: http://www.styleforum.net/t/277707/meermin-mallorca-shoes/10665#post_7190502

 

Again, I'll explain why I brought up the pros of adhesion to leetpuma, like I said in my earlier post:

 

"People don't shit on a GWY shoe, in general, because of the stitching to the canvas rib. They do so because at its heart, it is an adhesive construction method. Some complain of the canvas rib, but most people don't like the adhesion. I was operating from this viewpoint when I addressed leetpuma, and below was my point when addressing him."

 

You get that? I wanted to defend adhesion.

 

The point of was I was trying to illustrate adhesion isn't so bad. And the whole time, I was clearly discussing the stresses around the insole in a GWY shoe vs a hand welted shoe in my later posts when I was trying to explain to you what I've said.

 

The are more stress raisers in the insole of a hand-welted shoe vs a GWY shoe, (which is not incorrect).

 

Now, if you want to talk about the stress raisers in the canvas rib or what have you since the welt is stitched through it, that's fine, but don't use that to try and discredit what I've originally said to leetpuma, as I haven't said anything factually incorrect in adhesion vs stitching and it is unfair that you call it wrong. 

post #10812 of 12096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omert4 View Post

And I give up trying to explain to you that your "main question" is not something I was trying to talk about in the first place. You haven't actually addressed the point of my post.

I was purely talking about the pros of adhesion over stitching. I'll link you to it again: http://www.styleforum.net/t/277707/meermin-mallorca-shoes/10665#post_7190502

Again, I'll explain why I brought up the pros of adhesion to leetpuma, like I said in my earlier post:

"People don't shit on a GWY shoe, in general, because of the stitching to the canvas rib. They do so because at its heart, it is an adhesive construction method. Some complain of the canvas rib, but most people don't like the adhesion. I was operating from this viewpoint when I addressed leetpuma, and below was my point when addressing him."

You get that? I wanted to defend adhesion.

The point of was I was trying to illustrate adhesion isn't so bad. And the whole time, I was clearly discussing the stresses around the insole in a GWY shoe vs a hand welted shoe in my later posts when I was trying to explain to you what I've said.

The are more stress raisers in the insole of a hand-welted shoe vs a GWY shoe, (which is not incorrect).

Now, if you want to talk about the stress raisers in the canvas rib or what have you since the welt is stitched through it, that's fine, but don't use that to try and discredit what I've originally said to leetpuma, as I haven't said anything factually incorrect in adhesion vs stitching and it is unfair that you call it wrong. 

A stress point is a stress point, right? What makes it different if it is at the insole or at the canvas rib? Of course I talk about the stress points in the canvas rib, how can you not have understood that by now? And how can that be better than stress points at the insole?
post #10813 of 12096
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post


A stress point is a stress point, right? What makes it different if it is at the insole or at the canvas rib? Of course I talk about the stress points in the canvas rib, how can you not have understood that by now? And how can that be better than stress points at the insole?

 

The problem is you are trying to bring up the canvas rib and you are trying to use that to refute and say what I've said in adhesion vs stitching is inccorect. We can talk about the canvas rib, but that is another subject. If you want to refute what I've said, you would have to explain why the holes from stitching are not stress raisers and explain how adhesion doesn't act as a better sealant or provide a more even distribution of force.

 

Unless you can do that, you have no business calling what I've said incorrect. 

post #10814 of 12096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omert4 View Post

The problem is you are trying to bring up the canvas rib and you are trying to use that to refute and say what I've said in adhesion vs stitching is inccorect. We can talk about the canvas rib, but that is another subject. If you want to refute what I've said, you would have to explain why the holes from stitching are not stress raisers and explain how adhesion doesn't act as a better sealant or provide a more even distribution of force.

Unless you can do that, you have no business calling what I've said incorrect. 

Gosh, this is so stupid. If you have one construction method with a cut out holdfast from an insole where the welt is attached, and one construction method with an insole and glued on canvas rib where the welt is attached, why on earth would you compare the insole stitching on one of them to the adhesive part if the other? It doesn't make any sense at all. Of course you have to compare everything between the insole and the welt. Everything else is just so silly I don't know where to start.

I suggest that you go for a nice walk, come back and take 30 minutes to read my previous posts again, and then write "Sorry, I misunderstood everything. I didn't think clear, I was wrong. Sorry".
post #10815 of 12096
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post


Gosh, this is so stupid. If you have one construction method with a cut out holdfast from an insole where the welt is attached, and one construction method with an insole and glued on canvas rib where the welt is attached, why on earth would you compare the insole stitching on one of them to the adhesive part if the other? It doesn't make any sense at all. Of course you have to compare everything between the insole and the welt. Everything else is just so silly I don't know where to start.

I suggest that you go for a nice walk, come back and take 30 minutes to read my previous posts again, and then write "Sorry, I misunderstood everything. I didn't think clear, I was wrong. Sorry".

 


Again, are you gonna refute what I've said in adhesion vs stitching...or no? You can try to change the subject all you want and spin it. Just concede that adhesion does have some pros over stitching, and then we can talk about what it is you want to talk about.

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