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Meermin Mallorca Shoes - Page 720

post #10786 of 11422
Quote:
Originally Posted by yipjam View Post

Does anyone know or have any photos of how the Meermin Tan Country Calf boot compares to the Crockett and Jones Coniston?


I second this, if anyone can make a comparison.

post #10787 of 11422
Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiejake View Post
 


I second this, if anyone can make a comparison.

 

Third...

post #10788 of 11422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omert4 View Post

There are advantages and disadvantages. Some of the advantages of the goodyear welt is that the adhesive will also work as a sealant and having a continuous bond from the glue will allow a more even distribution of force. In a handwelted shoe, the force/stress are localized around the holes and holes are always stress raisers that can negatively impact the structural integrity. Bonded/glued construction is used in space industries due to these advantages. As long as a good quality glue is used and applied right, there's nothing wrong with it. 

I remember seeing a thread not long ago where a Vass handwelted shoe prematurely failed.

Sorry, with all due respect, but this is just to stupid to let go unanswered. First of all, a gemmed shoe will of course also have stitches in the glued canvas rib, making them have the same "weakness" of a stitch around the holes that you talk about, plus the fact that the rib is glued. Secondly, you do know that all shoes are glued too, not just the stitches holding them together? So the pressure is evened out over the whole shoe, whether it's a Goodyear welted or hand welted shoe.
post #10789 of 11422
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post


Sorry, with all due respect, but this is just to stupid to let go unanswered. First of all, a gemmed shoe will of course also have stitches in the glued canvas rib, making them have the same "weakness" of a stitch around the holes that you talk about, plus the fact that the rib is glued. Secondly, you do know that all shoes are glued too, not just the stitches holding them together? So the pressure is evened out over the whole shoe, whether it's a Goodyear welted or hand welted shoe.

 

I believe you meant "too stupid," with all due respect.

 

You are correct that the canvas rib will have stitching, but you forgot about the insole in the hand welted shoe. The holes in the insole will allow for more points of failure.

post #10790 of 11422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omert4 View Post
 

 

I believe you meant "too stupid," with all due respect.

 

You are correct that the canvas rib will have stitching, but you forgot about the insole in the hand welted shoe. The holes in the insole will allow for more points of failure.

 

Yes, I missed a letter. Good for you.

 

Please explain how holes in a holdfast cut out from a thicker insole of a higher grade of leather allow for more points of failure, than a thin insole of lesser quality leather (or even leatherboard or paperboard in some cases) with a glued on canvas rib with the holes in?

post #10791 of 11422
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post

 

 

I would just let it go man.

You are not going to convince him that handwelting is better. 

 

Sure if you use space age glue it may/will hold together but nothing seals the deal like an physical bond - Needle and thread.

 

Everything is overkill with shoes at this price.

(I mean seriously i can go down the street and buy 15-20 PAIRS of NEW glued shoes at the local store for the price of one LM meermin calf pair.)

 

So i just look at it as if I am paying this much I may as well get the one that logically makes the most sense to me. And that was hand welting for me. 

 

If he does not share this opinion thats okay.

post #10792 of 11422
It's all theoretical anyway. Yes, Meermin uses hand welting, but their QC is so bad that people get shoes that are lasted completely wrong, are off center or have other issues that impact durability. All of the advantages of hand welding aren't enough to overcome the disadvantages of bad QC.
post #10793 of 11422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyface View Post

It's all theoretical anyway. Yes, Meermin uses hand welting, but their QC is so bad that people get shoes that are lasted completely wrong, are off center or have other issues that impact durability. All of the advantages of hand welding aren't enough to overcome the disadvantages of bad QC.

100% true you never know what really goes on the the back room of the handwelting operation in china. 

The only way to know for sure would be for one of the people here to do an shoe take teardown to actually see what is actually going on inside. (Any one got a pair of LM meermins that they are ready to toss?)

 

(I like to think/believe (possibly incorrectly) even with meermins external QC issues* they have an better product internally b/c of handwelting but like you said this may be a pipe dream. My next shoe will probably be Vass b/c of this.)

 

* I should also say i don't care if my shoes come in 100% clean/Scratchless. after one week of wear i put 7-8 miles on them and quite a few wear marks. As long as they can be buffed out i don't really care. Screwing up the lasting process is a big issue to me but I've only seen 1-2 examples of this in the last 2-3 years. And most probably go a refund. Sole splits are also asthetic and not that big of a deal. 

 

- Also their have been less QC complaints in the past year than before - however, there are more supply chain complaints recently.


Edited by leetpuma - 6/25/14 at 3:58am
post #10794 of 11422

^^^ Yes, just didn't want him to spread misinformation, especially in this type of thread were there is a lot of people who are new to this kind of shoes. And to me it wasn't a discussion about Meermin per se, just two types of construction. And as I've stated before, Goodyear welted is a great construction, better than almost everything else, but it's not as good as hand welting which is not in danger where any "holes in the insole will allow for more points of failure".

 

There's a reason that the hand welt construction has been around for 500 years, and for why Mr. Goodyear created a technique that copies the construction method with machines...

post #10795 of 11422

I have no picture, but wanted to report that my first ever pair of goodyear welted shoes - Meermin snuff suede chukkas - arrived today. I know that Meermin is not considered the top brand in the rarefied world of Styleforum, but to me the quality is simply stupendous and the markup is very reasonable for what you get. Plenty of time spent waiting, but worth the wait. I will buy more. I don't understand why anyone wears shoes from the mall.

post #10796 of 11422
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post
 

 

Yes, I missed a letter. Good for you.

 

Please explain how holes in a holdfast cut out from a thicker insole of a higher grade of leather allow for more points of failure, than a thin insole of lesser quality leather (or even leatherboard or paperboard in some cases) with a glued on canvas rib with the holes in?

 

You're the one who started using words like "stupid" and made it more personal than it needed to be. 


The reason in a goodyear welt they can afford to use a lesser quality insole is that the gemming is glued to it. There's nothing wrong with using adhesive. It is used in many industries (including aerospace) and has proven to be durable. It just has a bad stigma around here, thanks to DWFII, who thinks everything should be done the old fashioned way and the incorrect belief many people hold that "they don't make it like they used to."

 

Anyway, the thicker insole is not needed in a goodyear welt. In a hand welted shoe since the welt is stitched through it, the holes that the stitches go through will have more localized stressed and the holes are stress raisers. With adhesive, there would be more of an even distribution of force around the insole (which should even make sense to the lay person). Much of what you are saying actually has nothing to do with my original post. I never talked about the durability of a canvas rib or anything of the sort, and I never said one was better than the other. I will say that canvas is more waterproof (less likely to be damaged by water) than leather, in my experience. Again, I am just saying there's advantages and disadvantages to both methods of construction, and I don't think that is an incorrect thing to conclude. You were somehow just offended by my post and completely disregarded what I actually said. Nothing I said was "incorrect" as you are trying to say and you aren't doing anyone any favors by trying to minimize what I've said.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_concentration

 

"Geometric discontinuities cause an object to experience a local increase in the intensity of a stress field. Examples of shapes that cause these concentrations are cracks, sharp corners, holes, and changes in the cross-sectional area of the object. High local stresses can cause objects to fail more quickly, so engineers must design the geometry to minimize stress concentrations."

 

Now, if you think adhesive is so bad, go buy a Nike shoe and go get a hand welted dress shoe. Go running in them for 6 months, everyday. I guarantee the $50 Nike shoe will have better structural integrity at the end of those 6 months than the hand welted shoe.


Edited by Omert4 - 6/25/14 at 11:35pm
post #10797 of 11422
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post

 

There's a reason that the hand welt construction has been around for 500 years, and for why Mr. Goodyear created a technique that copies the construction method with machines...

 

So do you know the reason Mr. Goodyear did that? Where did he say so? It would seem the motivations behind that were to still have a shoe with an easily replaceable sole, to have a shoe that is more efficient to manufacture, and cheaper to produce. I don't think Mr. Goodyear ever really thought about which shoe would be more durable longterm. But I am just assuming.

 

Keep saying a bunch of nothing. 

post #10798 of 11422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omert4 View Post
 

 

You're the one who started using words like "stupid" and made it more personal than it needed to be. 


The reason in a goodyear welt they can afford to use a lesser quality insole is that the gemming is glued to it. There's nothing wrong with using adhesive. It is used in many industries (including aerospace) and has proven to be durable. It just has a bad stigma around here, thanks to DWFII, who thinks everything should be done the old fashioned way and the incorrect belief many people hold that "they don't make it like they used to."

 

Anyway, the thicker insole is not needed in a goodyear welt. In a hand welted shoe since the welt is stitched through it, the holes that the stitches go through will have more localized stressed and the holes are stress raisers. With adhesive, there would be more of an even distribution of force around the insole (which should even make sense to the lay person). Much of what you are saying actually has nothing to do with my original post. I never talked about the durability of a canvas rib or anything of the sort, and I never said one was better than the other. I will say that canvas is more waterproof (less likely to be damaged by water) than leather, in my experience. Again, I am just saying there's advantages and disadvantages to both methods of construction, and I don't think that is an incorrect thing to conclude. You were somehow just offended by my post and completely disregarded what I actually said. Nothing I said was "incorrect" as you are trying to say and you aren't doing anyone any favors by trying to minimize what I've said.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_concentration

 

"Geometric discontinuities cause an object to experience a local increase in the intensity of a stress field. Examples of shapes that cause these concentrations are cracks, sharp corners, holes, and changes in the cross-sectional area of the object. High local stresses can cause objects to fail more quickly, so engineers must design the geometry to minimize stress concentrations."

 

Now, if you think adhesive is so bad, go buy a Nike shoe and go get a hand welted dress shoe. Go running in them for 6 months, everyday. I guarantee the $50 Nike shoe will have better structural integrity at the end of those 6 months than the hand welted shoe.

 

Personal and personal, I never said that you were stupid, I just said that your post was stupid. And I still think so, and I still think that you are incorrect. And it's a bit funny that you state that I disregard everything you say (you have to keep my answers to other persons apart from my replies to you), when you write long posts without being even close to answer the questions I was asking or reply to my statements.

 

Whether adhesive is good or bad has nothing to do with my questions to you. I wonder how you can claim that a construction method which uses a leather component with holes in it for stitches can "allow for more points of failure" than a construction method with a leather component with a glued on canvas rib which has holes in it for stitches? Please answer that.

 

Secondly, as I wrote before, neither a Goodyear welted shoe or a hand welted shoe has all the stress just in the stitches. They are also glued together, every layer is glued to next one, to even out the stress points and make for a stronger shoe.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omert4 View Post
 

 

So do you know the reason Mr. Goodyear did that? Where did he say so? It would seem the motivations behind that were to still have a shoe with an easily replaceable sole, to have a shoe that is more efficient to manufacture, and cheaper to produce. I don't think Mr. Goodyear ever really thought about which shoe would be more durable longterm. But I am just assuming.

 

Keep saying a bunch of nothing. 

 

Of course Goodyear invented the Goodyear construction to be able to produce shoes cheaper and more efficient. That's exactly my point. 

post #10799 of 11422
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post
 

 

Personal and personal, I never said that you were stupid, I just said that your post was stupid. And I still think so, and I still think that you are incorrect. And it's a bit funny that you state that I disregard everything you say (you have to keep my answers to other persons apart from my replies to you), when you write long posts without being even close to answer the questions I was asking or reply to my statements.

 

Whether adhesive is good or bad has nothing to do with my questions to you. I wonder how you can claim that a construction method which uses a leather component with holes in it for stitches can "allow for more points of failure" than a construction method with a leather component with a glued on canvas rib which has holes in it for stitches? Please answer that.

 

Secondly, as I wrote before, neither a Goodyear welted shoe or a hand welted shoe has all the stress just in the stitches. They are also glued together, every layer is glued to next one, to even out the stress points and make for a stronger shoe.

 

 

 

Of course Goodyear invented the Goodyear construction to be able to produce shoes cheaper and more efficient. That's exactly my point. 

 

What questions? I don't think you even understand my post or exactly what I am saying.

 

At its heart, a goodyear welted shoe relies on adhesive for its overall structure. If the adhesion in the goodyear welt completely fails, the whole shoe falls apart. It's an adhesive based construction. At the heart of the hand welted shoe, it is a stitched construction. If the stitching from the welt to the insole fails, the shoe will fall apart. What you don't understand about that, I don't know.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_concentration

 

If you read the article above, You will understand what I am saying when I say the holes in the insole of the handwelted shoe are stress raisers and that it has a less even distribution of force.

 

 

"Of course Goodyear invented the Goodyear construction to be able to produce shoes cheaper and more efficient. That's exactly my point. "

 

No, that wasn't your point. Your point was that he copied the hand welted construction with machines because hand welting is great. You're actually not sure nor did you provide a why. You were just trying to play an empty thought to look like more than it really is. It was nothing but fluff. 

 

I actually had to fill in those blanks for you about possibly why Mr. Goodyear invented the method (just as easy to resole, cheaper to produce, etc), but just because something is cheaper, it does not mean it is any less durable. 

post #10800 of 11422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omert4 View Post
 

 

What questions? I don't think you even understand my post or exactly what I am saying.

 

At its heart, a goodyear welted shoe relies on adhesive for its overall structure. If the adhesion in the goodyear welt completely fails, the whole shoe falls apart. It's an adhesive based construction. At the heart of the hand welted shoe, it is a stitched construction. If the stitching from the welt to the insole fails, the shoe will fall apart. What you don't understand about that, I don't know.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_concentration

 

If you read the article above, You will understand what I am saying when I say the holes in the insole of the handwelted shoe are stress raisers and that it has a less even distribution of force.

 

 

"Of course Goodyear invented the Goodyear construction to be able to produce shoes cheaper and more efficient. That's exactly my point. "

 

No, that wasn't your point. Your point was that he copied the hand welted construction with machines because hand welting is great. You're actually not sure nor did you provide a why. You were just trying to play an empty thought to look like more than it really is. It was nothing but fluff. 

 

I actually had to fill in those blanks for you about possibly why Mr. Goodyear invented the method (just as easy to resole, cheaper to produce, etc), but just because something is cheaper, it does not mean it is any less durable. 

 

Come on. You seem like a pretty smart man, how can you just continue to disregard what I write? Yes, Goodyear welting relies on adhesive for it's overall structure, it has both the adhesive part AND the holes and stitches. If the glue that holds the canvas rib to the insole fails, the shoe will fall a part. If the holes in the canvas rib fails the shoe will fall a part.

In a hand welted construction, you just have the latter, if the holes in the holdfast fails the shoe will fall apart. 

 

And you still disregard the fact that both hand welting and Goodyear welting also are glued between every layer.

 

Try to concentrate when you read this, maybe read it twice or even three times before you reply again, I think that you are capable of understanding.

 

 

The fact that Goodyear copied the hand welting construction to make a cheaper and faster way to produce shoes is so well known that I never thought I had to spell that out. The reason that he copied hand welting is because hand welting is great, yes. It's both correct.

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