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Made in China is now high end? - Page 11

post #151 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanguis Mortuum View Post


This is complete and utter bullshit. Lots of suits with 'Made In England' or especially 'Made In Italy' tags may have been made in China then only finished in the location on the tag, but Savile Row bespoke suits are all made by English tailors. Some of the houses have separate MTM operations, where the suits are made in the far east, but those do not cost anywhere near £5000.


Sorry try again.

 

Go HERE and read the post halfway down the page by Andrew Chan who is the head tailor at Henry Bailey who are located at 9-10 Savile Row. They set up the workshop in China and make suits there for themselves and other Savile Row tailors.

 

Another has a partnership with one of the tailor who also makes suits for me on contract. They send their in house tailors there four times a year to train the Chinese tailors and the chairman visits regularly. I've sent the suits being made and the final product.

 

Feel free to delude yourself that all "Savile Row bespoke suits are made by English tailors" That may be the official line but....

post #152 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanguis Mortuum View Post


Right, because neither America or England have ever had any civil wars...? facepalm.gif


You are mistaking civil wars for revolutions.  Remind me which English/British Dynasty was founded by peasants?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sator View Post


I don't believe there is any legal precedent anywhere that absolves a nation of past genocide just because there has been a change in the membership of the top leadership. Doubly so when the very same Party that committed the atrocities remains in power.
Both the German and Japanese governments have paid millions in reparation payments and have taken responsibility for their past well after the Nazi party and the Japanese Imperial militarist governments had been deposed from power. The Chinese themselves charge that the modern democratic Japanese government does too little to atone for the sins of their distant imperial past. Clearly, the Chinese themselves are the very last to believe that just because murder and genocide occurred over 50 years ago, that time has forgiven all sins.
A number of years ago a whole lot of Eastern Europeans who were forced to work in slave labour camps for the Nazis won a formal apology and reparations settlement against the German government. The question arises from time to time in Germany whether a formal apology should be made to gay and lesbian victims murdered in concentration camps. Even in Australia, the government recently made a formal apology to the native Aboriginals for human rights abuses committed in the distant past. Khrushchev too acknowledged the Soviet Union's dark past under Stalin, who became an evil pariah, and official monuments erected in his honour were removed: the Chinese Communist have never even so much as acknowledged the existence of untold suffering caused by Mao whose face continues to be displayed in "heroic" portraits glorifying him.



Germans, yes.  Japanese, they still enjoys their revisionist history after Fat Man and Little Boy made them victims of the war.

post #153 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon at Elite View Post



Sorry try again.

 

Go HERE and read the post halfway down the page by Andrew Chan who is the head tailor at Henry Bailey who are located at 9-10 Savile Row. They set up the workshop in China and make suits there for themselves and other Savile Row tailors.

 

Another has a partnership with one of the tailor who also makes suits for me on contract. They send their in house tailors there four times a year to train the Chinese tailors and the chairman visits regularly. I've sent the suits being made and the final product.

 

Feel free to delude yourself that all "Savile Row bespoke suits are made by English tailors" That may be the official line but....




Obviously it is nothing to do with young apprentices not coming through.If that was the case they would just import the best of them from China/HK/wherever and pay them UK wages.

 

This is all about cutting costs and maximising profits.

post #154 of 210
This is going to turn into one of those 1000+ page threads isn't it..

Is there a list of suspected high end brands that uses Chinese labour for the majority of the construction before sending it back to Italy/England/etc for finishing touches?
post #155 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon at Elite View Post

Sorry try again.

 

Go HERE and read the post halfway down the page by Andrew Chan who is the head tailor at Henry Bailey who are located at 9-10 Savile Row.


Sorry, try again. If you knew anything about the Row, you would know that 9-10 are often used by off-row tailors to see clients just so they can describe themselves as 'Savile Row'. There are several cheap MTM operations, such as King & Allen and 'Huality Bespoke', who use those premises for meeting clients. None of these companies are members of the Savile Row Bespoke Association, nor would their products be described as 'Savile Row Bespoke' by anyone know has a clue what they're talking about. Not to mention none of their products cost anywhere near £5000, and though the 'Henry Bailey' website doesn't include a price-list, I'd guess that they probably don't charge anywhere near that either.

As I said before, several Savile Row companies use far eastern factories to make their 'semi-bespoke' suits. I'm sure that the workers in these factories are highly skilled, likely trained to Savile Row standards, and that the suits they produce are very high quality. But any suits produced in this manner are described as 'semi-bepoke' or something similar to differentiate them from the true Savile Row Bespoke, which are always tailored in England, and these 'semi-bespoke' suits always cost a fraction of price of Savile Row Bespoke, never anywhere near the £5000 that you quoted.
post #156 of 210
More MIA (Made in America) goodness: http://vimeo.com/4814754
post #157 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sator View Post

Both the German and Japanese governments have paid millions in reparation payments and have taken responsibility for their past well after the Nazi party and the Japanese Imperial militarist governments had been deposed from power.
As others have mentioned, Japan hasn't done squat. They haven't even acknowledged their crime in their own history books let alone pay any country. Why don't you ask the Koreans what they've gotten? Or maybe the Philippines.

Speaking of responsible countries, have black Americans gotten anything back from slavery yet? I missed the memo.

This is no way excuses any China of its past crimes but again, it would be irresponsible to put the blame on the folks in leadership today. They are committing other civil rights violations that we should focus on.

----
Sorry to others for derailing this thread, but back on topic, China will clearly support a range from low to high end goods. It's taking a while to get the high end expertise but with so many high end companies investing in there, it is only a matter of time.
post #158 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

The Chinese government is certainly not Communist. Totalitarian Capitalist would probably be a more accurate label.

This something I often have to explain to my students. I always describe it as "one party state totalitarianism with a capitalist market economy". The distinction between "big C" Communism and "small c" communism is elusive for most people. The policies of the government of China aren't communist, or even socialist in nature. The Communist Party is just a name. Could as well call it something else; policies would be the same.
post #159 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraiche View Post

Speaking of responsible countries, have black Americans gotten anything back from slavery yet? I missed the memo.

This is not the place for these topics. However, it could be argued that they get to live a life in the USA devoid of ultra high AIDS rates, and the other horrors of life in the poor areas of Africa. If you mean 40 acres and a mule, I'm sure they're still waiting.
post #160 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by GradSchooler View Post

This something I often have to explain to my students. I always describe it as "one party state totalitarianism with a capitalist market economy". The distinction between "big C" Communism and "small c" communism is elusive for most people. The policies of the government of China aren't communist, or even socialist in nature. The Communist Party is just a name. Could as well call it something else; policies would be the same.

This has always puzzled me as to the many definitions and the deliberate addition of grey zone to term like socialism , and especially communism.

Isn't the simple crux of communism that the notion of private property is not recognized! And thus all of the actions of the Chinese government are fully consistent with communism. Seizing property such as house land etc without compensation is perfectly aligned with communism since it can be easily established that someone / group has a more pressing need for these items. Same thing for the harvesting of organs from prisoners or even simple peasants. Someone else had a more useful goal for such organs. Same thing with unpaid wages for factory workers. The money was needed elsewhere. It all should be really clear to everyone. Bribery and crime are also far more likely to go unpunished under Communism because the very essence of communism disempowers (sp?) the individual.
post #161 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenon View Post

This has always puzzled me as to the many definitions and the deliberate addition of grey zone to term like socialism , and especially communism.
Isn't the simple crux of communism that the notion of private property is not recognized! And thus all of the actions of the Chinese government are fully consistent with communism. Seizing property such as house land etc without compensation is perfectly aligned with communism since it can be easily established that someone / group has a more pressing need for these items. Same thing for the harvesting of organs from prisoners or even simple peasants. Someone else had a more useful goal for such organs. Same thing with unpaid wages for factory workers. The money was needed elsewhere. It all should be really clear to everyone. Bribery and crime are also far more likely to go unpunished under Communism because the very essence of communism disempowers (sp?) the individual.

Where are you getting your ideas? There is plenty of private property in China. Sure there are stories of villages getting destroyed due to a train being built and the like but it is not anywhere close to what you say it is. Bribery and crime may be more prevalent, but honestly the amount of it in the US is quite high and many petty crimes such as stolen iPods / phones will never really be followed up upon by law enforcement.
post #162 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenon View Post

This has always puzzled me as to the many definitions and the deliberate addition of grey zone to term like socialism , and especially communism.
Isn't the simple crux of communism that the notion of private property is not recognized! And thus all of the actions of the Chinese government are fully consistent with communism. Seizing property such as house land etc without compensation is perfectly aligned with communism since it can be easily established that someone / group has a more pressing need for these items. Same thing for the harvesting of organs from prisoners or even simple peasants. Someone else had a more useful goal for such organs. Same thing with unpaid wages for factory workers. The money was needed elsewhere. It all should be really clear to everyone. Bribery and crime are also far more likely to go unpunished under Communism because the very essence of communism disempowers (sp?) the individual.

I'm afraid that is just about as incorrect about the actual meaning of communism as you can get. It sounds more like Reaganite propaganda, written by someone who has never actually read Marx, than anything. You might be able to ague that what you're describing is in line with Maoism, but certainly not classical Marxian notions of socialism or communism.

The simple crux of communism is not that private property isn't recognized. Rather the crux of communism lies in the elimination of exploitation through the unfair distribution of wealth within society. The abolition of private property does not extend to the individual level in the way you describe. Indeed, Marx had a profound respect for the individual, their interests, goals, and needs. And, above all else, their inalienable natural rights. "Private property" refers here only to the means of production - i.e. the mechanisms by which we convert raw nature into useful human objects and the capital which is created through that process. It does to extend to individual private property (like your clothes, house, toothbrush, or - and I have no idea how you made this leap - internal organs). Redistribution is not based on some sort of authoritarian regime which dictates who needs what more and then proceeds to violate individual rights to achieve this. True communist governance is based on a form of radical, republican (in the Greek sense) democracy.

I'm writing in very broad strokes here, in the interest of brevity, but I'd be happy to go into more detail if people are interested. I'd also be happy to email my master's thesis, which deals with these specific issues in the context of (strangely enough) biological commodification, to anyone who is interested.
post #163 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joenobody0 View Post

This is not the place for these topics. However, it could be argued that they get to live a life in the USA devoid of ultra high AIDS rates, and the other horrors of life in the poor areas of Africa. If you mean 40 acres and a mule, I'm sure they're still waiting.

I don't even know where to begin with this...
post #164 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenon View Post

This has always puzzled me as to the many definitions and the deliberate addition of grey zone to term like socialism , and especially communism.
Isn't the simple crux of communism that the notion of private property is not recognized! And thus all of the actions of the Chinese government are fully consistent with communism. Seizing property such as house land etc without compensation is perfectly aligned with communism since it can be easily established that someone / group has a more pressing need for these items. Same thing for the harvesting of organs from prisoners or even simple peasants. Someone else had a more useful goal for such organs. Same thing with unpaid wages for factory workers. The money was needed elsewhere. It all should be really clear to everyone. Bribery and crime are also far more likely to go unpunished under Communism because the very essence of communism disempowers (sp?) the individual.

That's about it and the atheist bit that grounds/accompanies the Communist idea and removes any notion of any overriding moral/spiritual order that could contain such State initiated excess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GradSchooler View Post

And, above all else, their inalienable natural rights. Redistribution is not based on some sort of authoritarian regime which dictates who needs what more and then proceeds to violate individual rights to achieve this. True communist governance is based on a form of radical, republican (in the Greek sense) democracy.
I'm writing in very broad strokes here, in the interest of brevity, but I'd be happy to go into more detail if people are interested. I'd also be happy to email my master's thesis, which deals with these specific issues in the context of (strangely enough) biological commodification, to anyone who is interested.

This is the theory. Even most of that is bullshit aka "Marx had a profound respect for the individual, their interests, goals, and needs". Marx had a profound direspect for humans that were not part of his construct. Read Das Kapital. 50 million dead Russian/Soviet citizens 1917-1990+ illustrate the reality of Marxism in action. In China the Great Leap Forward is a shocking example of Marxism and its lack of concern for the human person.
post #165 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevent View Post

Where are you getting your ideas? There is plenty of private property in China. Sure there are stories of villages getting destroyed due to a train being built and the like but it is not anywhere close to what you say it is. Bribery and crime may be more prevalent, but honestly the amount of it in the US is quite high and many petty crimes such as stolen iPods / phones will never really be followed up upon by law enforcement.

Even private property is carefully controlled by the government. It may be yours, but the government controls what you may, or may not, do with said land. In both overt and covert ways.

I have never been to a meeting in China concerning the construction of a building that was not attended by 'local government representatives'. These people are showered with absolute respect and deference. In the agressive and competitive world of real estate development I can promise you that such deference is not offered to those who have no control. This is the only location on earth that I have personally witnessed such overt displays of government control.

Many of the 'private' projects that I work on are funded by the government. This is usually a known fact and is thus not covert in and of itself. But let us just say that he who controls the money controls all. Private financing in China can be had. But if you want to use it to develop real estate I'm quite certain you must make it 'worth the while' of the local officials.

Of course, someone is going to pipe in next and say that graft and corruption exists everywhere. And of course it does. But I can promise you that from I can see it is quite high in China and the benefactors are without fail part of 'the party'. I could of course add stories about clients in India going to meet the fire marshall with wads of cash in their trousers. But that shit goes on all over the US as well. Although is not 'the expected norm' as it is in India.
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