The State of Black Tie: Your Observations - Page 40

Originally Posted by johnvw 

Not really sure what point you are making here, since a reference to the "buttoning point" of the jacket is not part of your original post. www.blacktieguide.com (considered by many on SF to be an authority on black tie) points out that the regular (or lounge) suit and the tuxedo do not share a common heritage and, hence, should exhibit stylistic differences. Structurally, a suit jacket and a dinner jacket should be different in certain key details such as type of lapels, presence of silk facing, number of buttons, and vents (or lack thereof). Do you mean by your last sentence that each should button at the same place on the jacket?

Originally Posted by johnvw 

Will I get a response to this question?

Originally Posted by jeff13007 

Im not really an expert but if i may throw my 10c in here. A regular black tie dinner jacket is almost the same as a suit jacket, except when you follow tradition, it is peak/shawl lapels, has peak/grosgain facings and if you want to be really conservative then no vents. Usually the buttoning point should be at the point in the jacket which would give the best shape to the jacket, usually this is usually slightly below or slightly above your belly button, so if pants are worn at the natural waist there should be no shirt showing while the jacket is buttoned. With suit jackets this point might be a very high buttoning point like what was seen on suits in the 90's, but as dinner jackets/tuxedos are suppose to be more traditional the point should be nearer your belly button. Also normally suits are 3 or 2 or 3/2 3/2.5 etc while tuxedos especially SB ones should be 1 button

Originally Posted by jeff13007 

You are right, however a tuxedo without the silk/grosgain facings is just a black suit, As i stated in my post the buttoning point depends on where the tailor feels would give the jacket the best shape usually the narrowest point of the body, so Foo is correct in saying there should be no change in the buttoning point. That plus there is nothing stopping me from getting a black suit with peak lapels, non vented, and single buttoned right? that would have the the stylistic points of a tux but would in the end just be a black suit

Originally Posted by mafoofan 

First of all, lapel styles, silk facings, vents, and the number of buttons don't go toward a jacket's structure. After all, regardless of such details, a dinner jacket will be fitted and put together the same way a suit jacket would be. This includes the buttoning point. Your tailor will probably anchor all your single-breasted jackets at the same buttoning point, regardless of whether each is a one-button, two-button, or three-button jacket. Put another way, the buttoning point on a single-button dinner jacket should be at the same place as the buttoning point on a 3-roll-2 odd jacket, when made by the same tailor for the same client.
Second, and more importantly, aside from facings, all of those details can be found on lounge suits and are not exclusive to dinner jackets. If I ordered a black, peak-lapeled, single-button, ventless lounge suit, I could easily have it converted into a dinner suit later on by adding facings.
This was not meant to be an exercise in semantics. The important takeaway point is that a dinner suit and lounge suit are fundamentally the same in most ways, and minus certain surface details, would be indistinguishable from each other.
Again, this was not meant to be a matter of semantics. But if you want to get into it, "almost" is a key modifier.

Originally Posted by mafoofan 

First of all, lapel styles, silk facings, vents, and the number of buttons don't go toward a jacket's structure. After all, regardless of such details, a dinner jacket will be fitted and put together the same way a suit jacket would be. This includes the buttoning point. Your tailor will probably anchor all your single-breasted jackets at the same buttoning point, regardless of whether each is a one-button, two-button, or three-button jacket. Put another way, the buttoning point on a single-button dinner jacket should be at the same place as the buttoning point on a 3-roll-2 odd jacket, when made by the same tailor for the same client.
Second, and more importantly, aside from facings, all of those details can be found on lounge suits and are not exclusive to dinner jackets. If I ordered a black, peak-lapeled, single-button, ventless lounge suit, I could easily have it converted into a dinner suit later on by adding facings.
This was not meant to be an exercise in semantics. The important takeaway point is that a dinner suit and lounge suit are fundamentally the same in most ways, and minus certain surface details, would be indistinguishable from each other.
Again, this was not meant to be a matter of semantics. But if you want to get into it, "almost" is a key modifier.

Originally Posted by mafoofan 

Put another way, the buttoning point on a single-button dinner jacket should be at the same place as the buttoning point on a 3-roll-2 odd jacket, when made by the same tailor for the same client.

Originally Posted by F. Corbera 

Could this potentially mean that a one button SB jacket could be made into a two button...or, even a three button? That is, just be cutting new buttonholes and adding buttons?

Originally Posted by mafoofan 

Not potentially. Actually.

Originally Posted by romafan 

Wasn' this a TITc episode?