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The State of Black Tie: Your Observations - Page 289

post #4321 of 4608
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakejake View Post

Question: If I wear a white dinner jacket (with navy blue tux pants), do I still wear black cummerbund? The bow tie is black. Also what is marcella front you guys are talking about? I have no idea what it is even after putting into Google image

Yes. you still need a cummerbund or a vest. No, the cummerbund does not have to be the same color as the pants. In fact, theoretically, it should match the tuxedo facings (the lapels) as should the tie and will typically be satin or, more rarely, grosgrain. There are such things as midnight blue cummerbunds but they are not strictly necessary for a midnight blue DJ. They may arguably be better, assuming the facings are also midnight blue. Since you are wearing a black tie, wear a black cummerbund as well. This is especially true while you are wearing a white DJ.

The fact that you are wearing a DJ for a tropical wedding is slightly disturbing as these wedding are typically much more casual. This wedding isn't happening during the day or on the beach is it?
post #4322 of 4608
Quote:
Originally Posted by chobochobo View Post

I was at a PhD ceremony the other day in Amsterdam and the candidates were in white tie, tails and all. Made for quite the event.

 

White tie during the day?  That would indeed be quite the event. :facepalm:

post #4323 of 4608
Academic white tie is common in Scandinavia and Finland for PhD ceremonies. If you are awarded a Nobel prize be prepared to wear white tie too.
post #4324 of 4608
Quote:
Originally Posted by culverwood View Post

Academic white tie is common in Scandinavia and Finland for PhD ceremonies. If you are awarded a Nobel prize be prepared to wear white tie too.

Both excellent occasions for that level formality, IMO.

post #4325 of 4608
Quote:
Originally Posted by palk View Post

White tie during the day?  That would indeed be quite the event. facepalm.gif

White tie is the utmost formalwear for men. The so called evening tailcoat is equally known as dress coat and has been used for mornings most formal events since its birth. It is the prescribed dress code for formal "private" meeting with the Pope (Pope Francis seems to have relaxed etiquette as so far noone has worn it since his election), but with a black waistcoat. It is still also worn in morning weddings in Sweden and was worn in Italian aristocratic weddings until the WW2, as it is an accepted church dress code (black tie should not be worn in a Church).
Traditional accademic dress in UK also prescribe white tie under the robe, however I do not believe , it does the tailcoat.
Edited by marcodalondra - 6/22/16 at 6:11am
post #4326 of 4608
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcodalondra View Post


White tie is the upmost formalwear for men. 

 

I'm well aware; it simply seems odd to me that they would wear white tie instead of morning dress.  Sator put it best in this thread on wedding attire: "evening dress ... is associated with partying outrageously, drinking and dancing. That's why Dorian Gray prowled the diabolic London night-life in full dress. Dinner suits too are meant to be for dinner. To show up ... dressed to dine and party wildly is less than respectful. You might as well show up drunk with a bottle of champagne under your arm while munching an appetiser:"

post #4327 of 4608
It just goes to show Sator does not know everything.
post #4328 of 4608
Quote:
Originally Posted by culverwood View Post

It just goes to show Sator does not know everything.

 

He probably knew how to spell "utmost", at least.

post #4329 of 4608
Quote:
Originally Posted by BackInTheJox View Post

He probably knew how to spell "utmost", at least.
Thanks for the correction, as English is not my first language.

However, it does not change the fact that White Tie is not Dinner/Festive clothing only as Black Tie definitely is, (and for this Black tie should not have a place at actual Wedding Ceremonies I may add) and this is a wider shared view across many Old World (read Europe) countries other then the UK.
post #4330 of 4608
Not to go too much off topic on this thread, I have added a blog entry to help burst this other internet myth about how Full Dress /White Tie not appropriate for morning formal events and/or Weddings http://gentleman-napoletano.tumblr.com/post/146326166651/white-tie-or-full-dress-wedding-attire-a-recent
Edited by marcodalondra - 6/22/16 at 3:50pm
post #4331 of 4608
I believe what you are demonstrating is the regional bias between the English and other Europeans. The English, and perhaps their prior colonies, prefer the morning coat for day weddings. I hear day coats in the UK are still quite common.
post #4332 of 4608
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcodalondra View Post

Not to go too much off topic on this thread, I have added a blog entry to help burst this other internet myth about how Full Dress /White Tie not appropriate for morning formal events and/or Weddings http://gentleman-napoletano.tumblr.com/post/146326166651/white-tie-or-full-dress-wedding-attire-a-recent

Appreciate your perspective, but think calling the views on white tie that you disagree with an "internet myth" is not right in this case. Etiquette and what is appropriate varies by culture, as you well know (I believe you have argued that black tie should not be worn in churches, a view completely alien in the U.S. to my knowledge, apologies if I am confusing you with another). In the U.S. (I cannot speak for other parts of the world), black tie and white tie have long been seen as something that is to be worn after 6:00PM (perhaps with slightly latitude for an evening event that starts slightly before 6:00PM), whereas a morning coat would be worn for a daytime event for which a suit is too casual (the semi-formal stroller basically being dead in the U.S.).

Of course, the fact that a rule exists does not mean everyone knows about it or follows it. You see plenty of black tie in the afternoon the U.S. that I'd argue is inappropriate.
post #4333 of 4608
I believe marcoalondra is calling into question the stated rules (eg by Sator) as "universally acknowledged truth" whereas in fact there is much regional variation.
post #4334 of 4608
Quote:
Originally Posted by poorsod View Post

I believe marcoalondra is calling into question the stated rules (eg by Sator) as "universally acknowledged truth" whereas in fact there is much regional variation.

Yes, as my initial response was to address a negative comment to White Tie being worn at a morning event (PhD ceremony) in Amsterdam...

(Edit to add: also to clarify, the internet myth I am addressing is that White tie is ONLY appropriate for parting and evening formal event. Is the ONLY part that is a myth as the definition of Full Dress and my further explanation below demonstrate, but obviously I do agree that it is indeed appropriate dress code for evening formal events)

More importantly, as the later arguement called up as reference Sator and late 1800's early 1900's illustration of white tie as evening dress and/or party dress only, needed answering.

So to clarify once more, white tie dress code is known in British English correctly as Full Dress, which in reality indicate it as appropriate to be worn with stash and decorations.

Soon after its birth and to this day, it is consider the utmost form of formal dress for men in existence, morning or evening, and so to be used for the utmost formal occasion, in etiquette books from all over the world before WW2.

It was and still is, a dress code more formal than a morning coat. However the continuos loss of formality (worldwide) and importance of etiquette for all but the most prestigious events, has meant that the morning coat has become the more common formal attire choice for morning weddings, even in other countries or Europe (BTW I do live in the UK and I do know how common is to wear Morning coat here still, in fact worn one on Saturday). However, most etiquette expert would agree that if you were aristocratic and organising a wedding for let say 500 + guests, Full Dress/white tie would be well an option, in the UK as in the rest of Europe.

With regards to Black Tie being accepted in USA for weddings ceremony in churches, even worst no matter the time, well that has been an unfortunate trend that has gained in popularity over the last 60 years, and that @Manton 's now disappeared great thread had tried to address.

Finally to further prove the point to guys the other side of the pond:

A couple of illustrations of US president George Cleveland's White House wedding in 1886:




Prince Michael of Kent's (British Royal Family) own wedding in 1978 (albeit in Vienna):

Edited by marcodalondra - 6/25/16 at 2:51pm
post #4335 of 4608
Sator hasn't been around long enough. One of the words he tripped over was sack. Sack Coat has a number of different definitions. How some countries used that word other countries might not be aware of or interested. There were so many nuances that were never written down, so, how can later people understand? If he came back now, he'd do better. And like all of us, we can't speak for how people thought about clothes that's before our time. For me, the late fifties on I can speak of. Having watched some who came later talking about clothes before their time some of the people they learned from weren't honest. And then there are those who want you to wear what they want you to wear, sharks.
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