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The State of Black Tie: Your Observations - Page 26

post #376 of 2692
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Hmm--what am I not understanding? I thought you were saying the collar points should show below the bow tie, at least a little bit. My position is that it looks better when they don't show. In that regard, the degree of collar spread is a factor, but not solely determinative. The size and shape of the bow tie and the fit of the jacket also make a difference. Ultimately, if it's done "right" in my book, the spread of the collar will actually be indiscernible, as the points will be hidden by the bow tie. It's just that it is typically necessary to use a more spread collar, as opposed to a more pointed collar, to achieve such a result. In the photos I posted of Astaire, Connery, and Cary Grant (below), I don't think one can tell how spread their collars are, precisely because the gentlemen went Foo over Vox.

You have kicked my ass. smile.gif

I have edited my earlier post to reflect what I had really meant, and given you full credit. A photo to demonstrate that I am in thrall:

i-VMMmghD-L.jpg

As for not seeing how spread a collar is, you actually do see it in profile where the bow does not hide it, just as exemplified in the photos that you posted that are not taken straight on.
post #377 of 2692
Thread Starter 
^^^ It's just nice to feel appreciated, every now and then.

But still, I disagree. Why get your collar to follow the line of your bow tie when doing so risks showing your points (unless you want to show your points--heaven knows why)? It seems better policy to go for a more spread collar so that the risk is entirely abated. The only difference will be from an angle, where--as you point out--the spread of the collar becomes apparent. However, from that view, I don't see why a less spread collar is more or less preferable.
post #378 of 2692
I think I will continue to not care about this, though I recall that my tie does cover the collar points
My newest "smoking" shirt, though, has yet to get a trial run so I don't know whether the tie covers the points. For the record I decided to try a shirt with a covered placket, so no studs either.
post #379 of 2692
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

^^^ It's just nice to feel appreciated, every now and then.

I always appreciate you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

But still, I disagree. Why get your collar to follow the line of your bow tie when doing so risks showing your points (unless you want to show your points--heaven knows why)? It seems better policy to go for a more spread collar so that the risk is entirely abated. The only difference will be from an angle, where--as you point out--the spread of the collar becomes apparent. However, from that view, I don't see why a less spread collar is more or less preferable.

190

[click for supersize]

The more the collar is cut away, the more likely it is that you will get the problem in profile that are trying to avoid so studiously with your straight on view concerns. If you look at the Connery shot above and imagine the collar increasingly cut away, it does not take too much extra angle before the line of the collar edge shows. You might not see in frontally, but you will see it otherwise. I just don't like that.

And, contrary to the horrible implication of your cute Menswearhouse photo, I am hoping everyone is wearing a semi-formal shirt where the points meets the lapels.

Now that you've hounded and ass-kicked me on this subject, I've been forced to think about it more than I ever thought I would have to in my entire life. I guess what I am trying to describe is it looks cleanest to me to have the collar point, the bottom points of the bow, and the lapel all to meet at approximately the same place.

At least, that is what I think that I am tring to say, but I'm woozy from the punches and now will go into radio silence until the Patriots win lose.
Edited by F. Corbera - 2/6/12 at 3:45am
post #380 of 2692
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

I think I will continue to not care about this, though I recall that my tie does cover the collar points
My newest "smoking" shirt, though, has yet to get a trial run so I don't know whether the tie covers the points. For the record I decided to try a shirt with a covered placket, so no studs either.

Neato.
post #381 of 2692
Quote:
Originally Posted by F. Corbera View Post

Sounds vaguely Babylonian. How high are your city walls?

laugh.gif
post #382 of 2692
Quote:
Originally Posted by F. Corbera View Post

I always appreciate you.
190
[click for supersize]
The more the collar is cut away, the more likely it is that you will get the problem in profile that are trying to avoid so studiously with your straight on view concerns. If you look at the Connery shot above and imagine the collar increasingly cut away, it does not take too much extra angle before the line of the collar edge shows. You might not see in frontally, but you will see it otherwise. I just don't like that.
And, contrary to the horrible implication of your cute Menswearhouse photo, I am hoping everyone is wearing a semi-formal shirt where the points meets the lapels.
Now that you've hounded and ass-kicked me on this subject, I've been forced to think about it more than I ever thought I would have to in my entire life. I guess what I am trying to describe is it looks cleanest to me to have the collar point, the bottom points of the bow, and the lapel all to meet at approximately the same place.
At least, that is what I think that I am tring to say, but I'm woozy from the punches and now will go into radio silence until the Patriots win.

The solution to all of the issues, in my opinion, is to go with a slightly narrower spread but a much shorter collar and a bow slightly taller than the one worn in the pic above. This way the ends of the collar will be covered by the tie yet you won't see any spread from the side. Perhaps you want the spread of a point collar with the length of a spread collar to achieve this?
post #383 of 2692
And thus, a new "rule" has been born and doctoral thesis in Cultural Studies generated.
When the monograph "Tie me to the Point: the Fetishization of Collar Points and Bow-Tie Coverage in Men's Semi-Formal Dress" is published, I hope someone posts a link here.
post #384 of 2692
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

And thus, a new "rule" has been born and doctoral thesis in Cultural Studies generated.
When the monograph "Tie me to the Point: the Fetishization of Collar Points and Bow-Tie Coverage in Men's Semi-Formal Dress" is published, I hope someone posts a link here.

There are two competing rules in play, though.
post #385 of 2692
My formal shirt has the same collar as all my dress shirts. The points are tucked under the jacket collar.

What were we talking about again?
post #386 of 2692
424
post #387 of 2692
I think flusser references those somewhere as the special privilige of status-to-burn WASPs. Or maybe it was Wolfe. Anyway, fugly IMO.
post #388 of 2692
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post

My formal shirt has the same collar as all my dress shirts. The points are tucked under the jacket collar.
What were we talking about again?

The question is not whether the points tuck under your jacket (as they always should), but whether they should appear below the bow tie, and what the best method is for achieving the desired result.
post #389 of 2692
Quote:
Originally Posted by F. Corbera View Post

Sounds vaguely Babylonian. How high are your city walls?

They are 12 feet high and we shoot tourist on sight.

Actually, it is a small tourist town about 20 minutes outside of Asheville, NC. I would much rather live there than any big city. There is an opera and symphony here as well as some really great places to eat. I am not stuck in traffic. And the people here are much friendlier.
post #390 of 2692
The days of my needing black tie have gone, tho I do wish I knew then what I know now. I would definitely go for a midnight blue, peaked lapel, 1 button, side vented rig, velvet slippers, and a formal shirt (hidden placket maybe and spread collar) with a long tie, sterling stud links and some sort of flower. I know some of this is just wrong but it's just right.
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