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The State of Black Tie: Your Observations - Page 224

post #3346 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Veen View Post

I know there's been discussion of the white vest w/ black tie. I am watching The Maltese Falcon, and Peter Lorre's character wears a good example:


Looks like a white tie shirt, too; if you look closely you can see that it has single cuffs. However back then I think there was far less difference between black and white tie shirts, since pretty much all high-end dress shirts, even those intended for daytime/business wear, had detachable collars.

Of course, I would imagine the further back you go the more likely you were to find men who owned both black and white tie rigs, wore them with some regularity, and would swap out various elements from one to the other (such as full dress shirt/waistcoat with black tie). Or perhaps we're overthinking this and those are just what the costume department had on hand when shooting?
post #3347 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimelesStyle View Post

Or perhaps we're overthinking this and those are just what the costume department had on hand when shooting?
I wouldn't base any scholarly work, concerning things sartorial, on wardrobes appearing in cinema.
post #3348 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Veen View Post

 

Curious - is this the proper sizing for a stiff collar?  I need one and have been reluctant to follow the standard advice to go ½" up from your shirt size (I'm a true 15 ¼", so my shirt is a 15 ½" and it seems like the corresponding 16" collar would be huge). 

 

FWIW, I think the white waistcoat looks great in this photo, though I'm not a stickler for the sartorial rules that get invented here and elsewhere.  If someone is going to deviate from "strict" black tie, I'd much prefer to see them in this than to see them venture off with some novelty bow tie or cummerbund.  Or to see their half-untucked shirt paunching about their low-rise pants.  

post #3349 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tried and True View Post

I wouldn't base any scholarly work, concerning things sartorial, on wardrobes appearing in cinema.

The one film where I'd disagree, particularly regarding formalwear, was "The Untouchables". They had Armani do the wardrobing for that one, and the few scenes with guys in formalwear showed both the multiple variations in acceptable black tie as well as the distinction between black and white tie dress and events.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffd View Post

Curious - is this the proper sizing for a stiff collar?  I need one and have been reluctant to follow the standard advice to go ½" up from your shirt size (I'm a true 15 ¼", so my shirt is a 15 ½" and it seems like the corresponding 16" collar would be huge). 

FWIW, I think the white waistcoat looks great in this photo, though I'm not a stickler for the sartorial rules that get invented here and elsewhere.  If someone is going to deviate from "strict" black tie, I'd much prefer to see them in this than to see them venture off with some novelty bow tie or cummerbund.  Or to see their half-untucked shirt paunching about their low-rise pants.  

I would imagine they tell you to size up because you'll have an extra layer in between (band collar on the shirt) and perhaps this isn't accounted for in measuring the collar? Or perhaps there's an expectation that you'll end up laundering a detachable white collar on such a high temperature that you can expect some shrinkage?

And I'm sure between 50 and 100 years ago, give or take, there was far more mixing of black and white tie pieces, as the transition from white tie to black as the standard of "formal" was slowly beginning.
post #3350 of 3651

I doubt the collars would shrink, since they've already been boiled in starch and pressed like mad.  I'm sure it's more of the added material along with comfort factor.  I do think the stiffness allows the collar to be a bit larger without looking messy.  The collar seems to work on Lorre, but then again they may have purposely given him a bit larger collar for effect.  

 

The collar that came with the shirt measures a crazy 18" to the buttonhole centerlines, even though it's stamped 15 ½".  

post #3351 of 3651
A stiff collar worn in the same size as a soft collar would be very uncomfortable, if not painful, to wear. The collar Lorre is wearing is actually a bit too loose for him but he had an aversion to closely fitted collars.
post #3352 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffd View Post

I doubt the collars would shrink, since they've already been boiled in starch and pressed like mad.  I'm sure it's more of the added material along with comfort factor.  I do think the stiffness allows the collar to be a bit larger without looking messy.  The collar seems to work on Lorre, but then again they may have purposely given him a bit larger collar for effect.  

The collar that came with the shirt measures a crazy 18" to the buttonhole centerlines, even though it's stamped 15 ½".  

Well remember, the size stamped on an article of clothing indicates what size body part it is meant to fit. Someone with a 15.5in neck would require more than 15.5in of fabric in order to not strangle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tried and True View Post

A stiff collar worn in the same size as a soft collar would be very uncomfortable, if not painful, to wear. The collar Lorre is wearing is actually a bit too loose for him but he had an aversion to closely fitted collars.

Good point about stiffness and size (insert joke/pun here).

Interesting also about Lorre and an aversion to tight collars; given the character it would also make sense that they'd want to make him appear a little more slight than he actually was.
post #3353 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimelesStyle View Post

Well remember, the size stamped on an article of clothing indicates what size body part it is meant to fit. Someone with a 15.5in neck would require more than 15.5in of fabric in order to not strangle.

 

Hopefully they don't need 2 ½".  Trust, it's like a hula hoop around my neck.

 

I guess my question really is if you guys think the sizing of Lorre's collar looks O.K.  It does to me, at least in that shot, even though it's clearly a bit big.  I suspect that if I order a 16" collar, it will be similarly sized.

 

In the end, I may just have to order one of each and see - fortunately they aren't too expensive.  

post #3354 of 3651
IMO Lorre's collar is a bit looser than it should be. I do like the white vest worn in a black tie setting, however.
post #3355 of 3651

It grows on me the more I study that photo.  I think I'd go for it if my tux weren't notched - though I approve of the notch for standard bt, I think a white vest would definitely need a peaked lapel for everything to look right.

post #3356 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffd View Post

It grows on me the more I study that photo.  I think I'd go for it if my tux weren't notched - though I approve of the notch for standard bt, I think a white vest would definitely need a peaked lapel for everything to look right.

I'd also only wear a turndown collar with a notch lapel. IMO, the tall, detachable wing collar, like the white pique waistcoat, should be done with a peak jacket when worn for BT instead of WT.
post #3357 of 3651

I agree.  Ideally I'll move away from the notched lapel all together and have both a midnight blue shawl and a black with peak lapels.  In time, in time.

post #3358 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffd View Post

It grows on me the more I study that photo.
That's not an ideal photo to use as a model. Not only is Lorre wearing his collar a bit loose, he's also wearing it a touch too low.
post #3359 of 3651

It probably sits lower just as a result of being too large.  Unless you mean the size of the collar itself - I'd think that if you wear a stiff collar with black tie that you wouldn't want it too tall.  

post #3360 of 3651

I might be getting a double breasted  tuxedo for a teenager. The one we were looking at has six buttons, which looks kind of strange to me.  If we remove the top two buttons, or the top four buttons, would it look wrong because the cut or button placement is different for a six-button?  A photo from the website is below, showing the buttons.

 

If this makes sense to do, would removing the top four be better than just the top two?

 

 

 

https://www.uniformalwearhouse.com/apgimages/aformalwear/tuxedojackets/tux_wbk/na_dbp.jpg 

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