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The State of Black Tie: Your Observations - Page 22

post #316 of 2693
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmax View Post

Gents, what is your experience with midnight vs black facings (grosgrain) with midnight mohair/wool as the base? I believe midnight is preferable for the facings but it seems tailors, at least here in HK, have difficulty obtaining the color. Any ideas on a source for the facings?
I have seen many pics of black facings on a blue coat but none with blue facings. If anyone could oblige or comment it would be much appreciated.

My hesitation in going this way is that the tie/cummerbund (if you go with one) should match the facings but also shouldn't be blue (otherwise it would be "blue tie"). Also, the idea that midnight appears "blacker than black" in the right light wouldn't necessarily apply to the silk facings (satin or grosgrain).
post #317 of 2693
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimelesStyle View Post

My hesitation in going this way is that the tie/cummerbund (if you go with one) should match the facings but also shouldn't be blue (otherwise it would be "blue tie"). Also, the idea that midnight appears "blacker than black" in the right light wouldn't necessarily apply to the silk facings (satin or grosgrain).
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Despite the fabric used for your suit or its facings, the bowtie and cummerbund really should be black. it will not "pop" in a bad way. I wear a black bowtie with my with midnight blue dinner jacket myself.
post #318 of 2693
Quote:
Originally Posted by gyalos View Post

This is from his twittr account, not very clear photo but coat looks correct , bow-tie untidily tied as it should be, and overall nice which is peculiar for a hollywood star anyway.
468

Given his current job I would hope he'd know how to do suits and black tie, both of which are done quite well on the show (though I'm not a fan of buttoning both jacket buttons).
post #319 of 2693
Quote:
Originally Posted by poorsod View Post

My understanding is that the Vienna balls are white tie events. The Viennese Opera Ball in NYC is white tie. Are the ones in DC less formal? How sad.

Yes, the ones I've been to in DC have usually been white tie optional, and even where the invite only says "White Tie" an overwhelming majority turns up in black tie (me included). I've been debating getting a set of white tie attire for the longest time, but have not had the courage to take the plunge. Maybe if i keep going to these balls, I should get one after all.

Also, as someone who enjoys Viennese waltz, the ultimate dream would be to go to Vienna during the ball season, and THAT would undoubtedly justify getting white tie attire (but that's presumably another thread).
post #320 of 2693
Nothing wrong with it, you could wear that colour with a grey suit.
post #321 of 2693
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metlin View Post


My argument had been in favor of black facings, not against midnight fabric for the rest of the suit.
post #322 of 2693
I've gone through this thread and am still confused about terminology as it relates to formal wear. I'm thinking of commissioning a suit from Chan that can be worn for most formal occassions. Whether I can get away with it for "Black Tie" I suppose depends on what I understand:

  • When reference is made to a "dinner jacket" - what are the correct pants to wear with it?
  • How is a dinner jacket or dinner suit different than a tuxedo?
  • Are dinner jackets and tuxedo jackets suppose to have vents or is ventless or double vents entirely personal preference?
  • How do the pants differ, if at all between a dinner suit and tuxedo? Is it the striping along the side?

Would appreciate any opinions on my proposed configurations for my "formal suit" I can use for attending weddings (hell, maybe my own if it ever happens), opera, NYE or random formal events that don't come up often for me:

Jacket
  • Midnight blue in a mohair blend fabric, single breasted, one button (what is proper color of the button - also blue?).
  • Peak lapel with black grosgrain facings.
  • Double vents.
  • Quarterlined.
  • Jetted straight pockets.

Pants
  • Midnight blue in a mohair blend fabric, no cuffs.
  • Side tabs, no belt loops. But I'm also interested in having suspender buttons included. Would this require the cut of the pants to be less slim than I would typically wear with suit pants?
  • Off seam pockets.
  • One or two back pockets?

Should I also commission a vest with this? If so, would something like a dove grey single breasted work with midnight blue silk back, or should it also be entiretly midnight blue?
post #323 of 2693
Quote:
Originally Posted by teddieriley View Post

[*] How is a dinner jacket or dinner suit different than a tuxedo?

Limeys vs. Yankees.
post #324 of 2693
TR, everything that you have decided to do is fine.

Tuxedo is an Amercanism for what the British call a dinner suit. They are the same thing today. What makes it a suit is that the jacket and pants are in the same fabric.

A dinner suit takes semi-formal pants, which have a single side braid, typically in the same material as the facings. Pants cut for suspenders are ideally a bit loose, which allows the suspenders to do their job in allowing a nice drape to the legs. Pants cut to be worn without suspenders can still take suspenders buttons. While you lose the graceful drape, suspenders can prevent the dreaded pooling of pants at the ankles

Acceptable jacket buttons on a black or midnight tuxedo are black plastic, highly polished near-black horn, or fabric-covered buttons done in the same fabric as the facings. The fabric on the button can be smooth or interwoven in a jaquard pattern. A nice touch on a SB jacket are link buttons: at the buttoning point, there is a buttonhole on either side. Two fastening buttons are joined like cufflinks. It's an archaic detail, though, since you would never fasten an SB jacket. Because you never fasten an SB jacket, ventless is as practical as vented in a way that it is not for a DB, since a DB is always closed, Dougie dancing or Macarena notwithstanding. Midnight blue semi-formal pants look nicer with odd dinner jackets (cream, tartan, etc), so that's an advantage.

Because an SB jacket remains unfastened, a waist covering is essential. This can be a cummerbund, but better in a full dinner suit with peaked lapels rather than a roll/shawl collar is a semi-formal vest. A semi-formal vest is black. There are many designs, both SB and DB. The archtypical vest is the black version of the full dress vest, which is white, but anything cut low is correct. A semi-formal vest is done in same fabric as the dinner suit, preferentially with lapels is self fabric rather than in the jacket facings. Since you are doing a quarter lining in the jacket, consider a backless vest. Backless looks loopy with the jacket off, though.

Full dress vests in white were originally worn with dinner jackets, but with white tie. This was generally replaced with the black vest, black tie combo. The Duke of Windsor reintroduced the dress vest in white, but with black tie, making it fashionable at the time. This remains okay, but it is very formal for most occasions.

How's that?
post #325 of 2693
Black tie = Tuxedo = Dinner Jacket* = Smoking**

* Note that 'Dinner Jacket' refers to the whole get up, not just the jacket. Also some times called 'Dinner Suit' but still the same thing.

** 'Smoking' may only carry this exact same meaning in Scandinavia and maybe Germany.

Now, I'm no Black Tie authority, but I'll try to address a couple of your questions just the same - hopefully the resident experts will be along to correct any glaring mistakes.


•When reference is made to a "dinner jacket" - what are the correct pants to wear with it?
•How is a dinner jacket or dinner suit different than a tuxedo?
•How do the pants differ, if at all between a dinner suit and tuxedo? Is it the striping along the side?


As stated above, Dinner Jacket/Dinner Suit/Tuxedo are the same thing and so are the pants: Made from the same fabric as the jacket and with a single braid along outside seams to match lapel facings.


•Midnight blue in a mohair blend fabric, single breasted, one button (what is proper color of the button - also blue?).

As for buttons, cloth covered seems the most classic. One button front for a SB and four at the cuffs. For a midnight DJ with black facings I guess you could go either way with the button colour - maybe check with the tailor?


•Double vents.

No vents is the classic option.


Should I also commission a vest with this? If so, would something like a dove grey single breasted work with midnight blue silk back, or should it also be entiretly midnight blue?

A standard part of Black Tie is the waist covering (not necessary with a DB as it's supposed to remain closed. For a SB this means either a waistcoat or a cummerbund. A cummerbund should be the same colour as the jacket facings, a low-cut evening waistcoat the same colour as the suiting.


Also, http://www.blacktieguide.com/ is a pretty solid resource.


Edit: Wrote this while Voxbera posted so everything here is probably covered in the post above.
post #326 of 2693
FC and Kaplan, you are awesome. Thanks very much.

So as for SB jackets, is there a particular reason it is never fastened? So the convention of buttoning while standing for lounge or business suits doesn't apply to DJs?

Also, the vest is suppose to be the same fabric as the suit - does this imply color as well, so something like a dove grey would not be traditional? But if i were to go with grey, would that be a disaster or still acceptable?
post #327 of 2693
SB dinner jackets trace back to full dress, for which coats are worn unfastened.

I wouldn't do dove gray...a contrasting vest would be for morning wear, except for a strict white full dress vest as I mention above.

A "fun" vest could be okay for a tuxedo, but only as an option for someone with a full black tie season.
post #328 of 2693
Last question (promise). I'm assuming the braiding on the trousers elevates it to black-tie appropriate dress. Given that my attendance to black tie is rare (although the point is I would want to be prepared in any such event), and I want to be able to wear the suit to less formal events, like weddings where no specific dress is designated or nice dinners on the town, should I still opt for the braided trousers, go for plain or just order a pair of each while I'm at it?
post #329 of 2693
The details of both the coat and pants of correct black tie will pretty much mark them as such, so they're not really something you can dress down as non black tie. That said, the correct black tie pants (with a single braid along outside seams to match lapel facings) can be used with several types of jacket: A SB or DB in the same colour as well as a SB or DB in ivory as well as more casual smoking jackets in plaid or velvet. Don't get plain pants for this, IMHO.
post #330 of 2693
There would be no point to pants without the seams finished with a dinner jacket.

It you want something less formal, better a dark or midnight blue regular suit with a FIH or bow. Skip the tuxedo altogether.
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