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The State of Black Tie: Your Observations - Page 205

post #3061 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffd View Post

A trend which continues today - so by your own reasoning, it shouldn't be surprising to see the notched lapel gain favor.  We wear tuxedos where once white tie was required, and where tuxedos were once worn, we now wear suits, if not shorts and a t-shirt.  

So it goes.  Lament the loss of formality if you want - I won't fault you for that.  But the notched lapel is not a fad, but a reflection of a century's long trend.  If anything, we should be surprised it took so long.  

See, I'd say that the transformation from white tie to black tie is the same idea as the transformation from black tie to a suit and tie. The tailcoat pretty much fell out of use but on the rare occasions when it is worn today, it is pretty much the same garment. The fact that black tie is worn less frequently isn't really a rationale in itself for the elements of it to change.

One could have a very long and potentially interesting discussion on whether the rough similarities between a tuxedo and a suit made it easier for certain features seen on business suits to creep into tuxedos without the average man being too aware or concerned about this trend. While I continue to believe that the peak and shawl and far preferable to the notch lapel, I suspect that this played a large part in it. I buy the idea that one can see a tuxedo as a form of suit much more than the idea that one could see black tie as a form of white tie. I don't dispute that notch lapel tuxedos are probably here to stay as a practical matter. All that said, I believe that the rare occasions one has to don a tuxedo give one a chance to honor tradition in a truly elegant manner.
post #3062 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibaldleach View Post

I believe that the rare occasions one has to don a tuxedo give one a chance to honor tradition in a truly elegant manner.

This pretty much sums it up in a nutshell.
post #3063 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibaldleach View Post

See, I'd say that the transformation from white tie to black tie is the same idea as the transformation from black tie to a suit and tie. The tailcoat pretty much fell out of use but on the rare occasions when it is worn today, it is pretty much the same garment. The fact that black tie is worn less frequently isn't really a rationale in itself for the elements of it to change.

One could have a very long and potentially interesting discussion on whether the rough similarities between a tuxedo and a suit made it easier for certain features seen on business suits to creep into tuxedos without the average man being too aware or concerned about this trend. While I continue to believe that the peak and shawl and far preferable to the notch lapel, I suspect that this played a large part in it. I buy the idea that one can see a tuxedo as a form of suit much more than the idea that one could see black tie as a form of white tie. I don't dispute that notch lapel tuxedos are probably here to stay as a practical matter. All that said, I believe that the rare occasions one has to don a tuxedo give one a chance to honor tradition in a truly elegant manner.

If anything, today's black tie events should call for the most formal interpretations of the outfit because it is now used in only the most formal settings. I feel like it used to be that any evening event one attended was black tie, and it was more of a way to set daytime apart from night than a way of signifying formality.

A better example of the "natural evolution" referred above is the shawl collar appearing on dinner suits (vs just smoking jackets) and being perfectly acceptable outside the home. That evolution wasn't about making the tuxedo more like a suit but taking the less formal elements of traditional evening attire and elevating then to the same level as the more formal elements.

And I don't know that I believe the transition from white tie to black was about making the tux more like a suit as much as a reflection in the changes to the ceremonial uniforms worn by the military and heads of state (which were the inspirations for white tie). This is pure conjecture on my part, however.
post #3064 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnBC View Post

It is the Suit Supply self-tied bow tie. Although it isn't grosgrain like the lapels, I think it is just plain satin. Black Tie rookie mistake, but from a distance, it should go unnoticed. 

Not only will it go unnoticed, it will be much easier to tie. Grosgrain trends to be thicker and more difficult to work with.

And good call on going with a cummerbund and braces! The cummerbund is essential (unless opting for a vest) and though technically optional (based on the fit of the pants and whether they have side adjusters) I think braces are the way to go. That way it's possible to leave a little room in the waist and be more comfortable. I now wear them with all my suits, actually. Just make sure you do button-on ones instead of clips wink.gif. Again, job well done and be sure to report back on your new tailor's job.
post #3065 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimelesStyle View Post

If anything, today's black tie events should call for the most formal interpretations of the outfit because it is now used in only the most formal settings. I feel like it used to be that any evening event one attended was black tie, and it was more of a way to set daytime apart from night than a way of signifying formality.

A better example of the "natural evolution" referred above is the shawl collar appearing on dinner suits (vs just smoking jackets) and being perfectly acceptable outside the home. That evolution wasn't about making the tuxedo more like a suit but taking the less formal elements of traditional evening attire and elevating then to the same level as the more formal elements.

And I don't know that I believe the transition from white tie to black was about making the tux more like a suit as much as a reflection in the changes to the ceremonial uniforms worn by the military and heads of state (which were the inspirations for white tie). This is pure conjecture on my part, however.

From a normative perspective, I would agree with you that it makes sense to wear the more formal and differentiated option at a black tie event today since any occasion calling for black tie is one of the most formal events one will attend in a particular year. With respect to the transition between white tie and black tie, I wasn't trying to say it was about making the tuxedo more like a suit. I don't believe that. Practically, however, I do believe that the greater similarity between a tuxedo and a suit, combined with the declining use of a tuxedo, made it easier for certain features seen more on suits (notch lapels, no waist covering, etc.) to become more common in today's world.
post #3066 of 3651
Ah, now I know why the tux won't sell!
post #3067 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeero3 View Post

Ah, now I know why the tux won't sell!

 

What tux are you referring to? Mine?

post #3068 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnBC View Post

What tux are you referring to? Mine?

I'm referring to my tux (in my sig). My attempt at a joke that it must be because the tux has peak lapels that it hasn't sold even though the price has been lowered a ton.
post #3069 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeero3 View Post

I'm referring to my tux (in my sig). My attempt at a joke that it must be because the tux has peak lapels that it hasn't sold even though the price has been lowered a ton.

Or because it's July and not many people are thinking about a cashmere tux ATM. One or the other. 50/50 on which it is wink.gif.
post #3070 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tried and True View Post


Difficult to wear? How so?

IMO depends how much slim fit or 'shape' has been added and your body proportions ...

 

Ventless easily causes a pull against the front buttons sometimes creating an X or Y pull, particularly when moving.

 

IMO if you need to 'let a jacket out' to accommodate a ventless jacket it will lose elegance.

post #3071 of 3651
^ Not a problem I've ever had and my dinner jacket is fairly slim.
post #3072 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffd View Post
 

 

A trend which continues today - so by your own reasoning, it shouldn't be surprising to see the notched lapel gain favor.  We wear tuxedos where once white tie was required, and where tuxedos were once worn, we now wear suits, if not shorts and a t-shirt.  

 

So it goes.  Lament the loss of formality if you want - I won't fault you for that.  But the notched lapel is not a fad, but a reflection of a century's long trend.  If anything, we should be surprised it took so long.  

Wow, Edward VII as Prince of Wales has a lot to answer for: urban mythology has it he popularised DJs over tailcoats.

post #3073 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibaldleach View Post

^ Not a problem I've ever had and my dinner jacket is fairly slim.

Put bluntly its how big your rear is in contrast to your waist. 

 

I don't wish to elaborate!

post #3074 of 3651
^ Bigger than average relatively speaking. I'd be more concerned about vents flaring out for most people than them not being able to elegantly wear a vented jacket that is properly fitted to them. YMMV.
post #3075 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibaldleach View Post

^ Bigger than average relatively speaking. I'd be more concerned about vents flaring out for most people than them not being able to elegantly wear a vented jacket that is properly fitted to them. YMMV.

My wife would be concerned if other guys were checking whether I was vented or not!

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