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The State of Black Tie: Your Observations - Page 127

post #1891 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by lwmarti View Post

Note that waist coverings are actually quite rare these days,

So are taste and style. (Edit: I am not saying that lwmarti lacks taste or style. I'm certain he is a gentleman of the highest order.)

Avoid the Bermuda triangle. Cover your waist.
Edited by Veremund - 12/4/13 at 12:21am
post #1892 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by lwmarti View Post

At every black tie event that I've been to in recent years, the number of people who were wearing a waist covering was very small.

Most people don't know any better.
post #1893 of 3651

As is implied above, and before, it seems that there is a difference between doing what tends to be done, and looking good.  I am often guilty of unbuttoning my jacket.  Those that have seen my waistcoat understand why.  Let us also not forget the wide range of formality of black tie events.  For example, I am hosting a Black Tie Preferred cocktail party on Friday evening.  It is going to be quite informal, and easygoing, and I will encourage my guests to feel relaxed.  I think there will be five or six gentlemen in Black Tie, to varying degrees of correctness, and someone might take his jacket off, or undo his tie before the end of the night.  This would be completely acceptable, and appropriate, at this particular event.  There are other events when these things would be totally unacceptable.  Remember that the Tuxedo covers everything between "just more than a suit" and "just less than White Tie."

post #1894 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImTheGroom View Post

I am often guilty of unbuttoning my jacket.

I am under the impression that single button jackets are for the most part meant to be worn unbuttoned.

J
post #1895 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by lwmarti View Post

This is clearly a matter of opinion, and a topic on which opinions vary greatly.

I'm a believer in the position that a waist covering is a rather silly-looking holdover from past styles and can (and should) be done away with. Others believe that it's a critical part of black tie. Both positions have some merit.

Note that waist coverings are actually quite rare these days, which seems to indicate that what's regarded as correct black tie has evolved away from requiring a waist covering. Since its creation, black tie has evolved, and this is just another part of that process. (In the US, it also looks like peak lapels are now part of history since they're now a small and ever-decreasing fraction of tuxedo sales here. Etc.)

On the other hand, if you define correct black tie as being in accordance with a set of guidelines that have some (although perhaps somewhat arbitrarily-defined) tradition to support them, then you'll want to go with a waist covering.

So there's really no single right answer. It's really a matter of your personal taste. (James Bond wasn't fond of waist coverings at all, but don't let that affect your choice.)
we have agree to disagree... black tie as a whole can be considered a "silly-looking holdover from the past", but in this Classic Forum I think we have an opportunity of re-enforcing the standards and at the very least making sure forum members seeking advice do not make the same mistakes as the general population. Mentioning what the RTW industry put on the shelves (e.g. having one pattern for all suits) or a fictional character interpreted over time in different way by the various costume designers, is not backing for the argument IMHO. In the golden era of Black Tie, around 1920-1940, when it was firmly established as a substitute for Top hat and tail for evening formal events, a waist covering was a must, with or without double breasted jacket. As mentioned before, at least the Duke, wore both a cummerbund and waistcoat with his black tie (double breasted). This may be due, at least partially, to the fact that he wore lower rise trousers then the English norm at the time (still pretty high then today standards) and used the cummerbund to extend the trouser top end.
post #1896 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by othertravel View Post

Can anybody recommend a set of reasonably priced stud/cuff link sets? Could be antique (I.e. used).

Send a PM to capnwes who mostly posts on the thrift threads here on SF. His cufflink/stud collection is legendary and a deal with him likely won't break your bank.

I have no affiliation but I HAVE sent him a nice Brioni shirt that I thrifted in exchange for some links/studs. Hell of a nice guy and highest props to him.

This is a link to the cufflinks at his online store: One Stitch in the Seam (Home of Cover the World with Tweed 2013)/Cuff links.
There, you'll find another link to his current eBay offerings.

After you've looked it over, I'd really suggest sending the PM letting him know your specific needs.

Hope this helps.
post #1897 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by J011yroger View Post

I am under the impression that single button jackets are for the most part meant to be worn unbuttoned.

J

I think this mpression is mistaken.
post #1898 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ianiceman View Post

I think this mpression is mistaken.

It is certainly debatable, but I am much more lenient than with a suit.

Standing around shooting the breeze, smoking a cigar, or hanging at the bar I am likely to have mine unbuttoned. I may feel compelled to button up for a formal picture, or to walk down the aisle.

If your dinner jacket looks enormous unbuttoned then by all means, treat it like a suit and button whenever you are not seated, but I think the part of black tie that most don't grasp or do well is the air of casualness about it.

You aren't working, you aren't overseeing, you aren't officiating, you are hanging out with your friends.

Most who don't often wear black tie tend to feel like they have a pole up their ass, and that fucks up the whole thing.

You aren't supposed to feel like some little yip-yap dog who's woman owner put some stupid sweater on, you are supposed to feel like you are wearing your softball or bowling team uniform and going to hang out with the guys.

Your date is supposed to look and feel beautiful and special, you are just there to have a good time.

J
post #1899 of 3651
Cummerbunds are an archaic item of clothing these days. A comment I have probably make more than once before on this thread.
post #1900 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by lwmarti View Post
 

Again, this is another matter of opinion. I know exactly one person (real-life, mind you, not anonymous people on internet forums) who wears a waist covering for black tie, so if you showed up without a waist covering, the assumption that you decided to not wear one would be the default. And wearing a waist covering would draw roughly the sort of comments that wearing a suit to an office that's business casual would.

 

At every black tie event that I've been to in recent years, the number of people who were wearing a waist covering was very small. Very, very small. So I'd say that a waist covering is more likely to look a bit unusual these days. Not that that's necessarily bad, of course. It's just different.

 

And try not to forget that the opinions of people on internet forums dedicated to discussing men's clothing probably aren't representative of the rest of the world.


I don't live in California, and I don't know you, so I cannot really comment on what is and isn't common in your social circle(s). However, my husband and I (we're both in our 30s) attend more than a dozen black and white tie functions in the US, the UK and continental Europe each year, and the vast majority of male guests do indeed wear waist coverings. Granted, some appear in ill-fitting and high-cut waistcoats in questionable colours and patterns, but I have noticed an increasing number of younger men (late 20s and 30s) who are very well dressed. None of these men would ever forego a waistcoat or cummerbund. Believe it or not, but I have even seen opera cloaks and silk top hats, and I do believe that my personal experiences and observations are as valid as yours.

 

Whilst I agree that an Internet clothing forum is indeed not representative of the entire world, I think the same can be said of southern California, which is one of the most ultra-casual regions of the United States.

post #1901 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Persephone View Post

Whilst I agree that an Internet clothing forum is indeed not representative of the entire world, I think the same can be said of southern California, which is one of the most ultra-casual regions of the United States.

+1.
post #1902 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veremund View Post


Most people don't know any better.


Indeed! The actions of "most people" have never been a good example -- and this applies to all areas of life.

post #1903 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by culverwood View Post

Cummerbunds are an archaic item of clothing these days. A comment I have probably make more than once before on this thread.I 

 

I hear the same thing about Tuxedos, and about suits, about neck ties, and proper shoes.  In the words of the Dowager Countess, "and another brick is pulled from the wall."  That said, I do prefer a waistcoat, myself.

post #1904 of 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by othertravel View Post

Thanks for indulging a black-tie noob. And I guess patent leather is a must as well?

 

Well polished calf is also fine.  In either case, the shoe needs to be plain-toed and (ideally) closed-laced or laceless (i.e. a slipper or pump).

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lwmarti View Post
 

Again, this is another matter of opinion. I know exactly one person (real-life, mind you, not anonymous people on internet forums) who wears a waist covering for black tie, so if you showed up without a waist covering, the assumption that you decided to not wear one would be the default. And wearing a waist covering would draw roughly the sort of comments that wearing a suit to an office that's business casual would.

 

At every black tie event that I've been to in recent years, the number of people who were wearing a waist covering was very small. Very, very small. So I'd say that a waist covering is more likely to look a bit unusual these days. Not that that's necessarily bad, of course. It's just different.

 

And try not to forget that the opinions of people on internet forums dedicated to discussing men's clothing probably aren't representative of the rest of the world.

 

Because I'm on this forum, I pay keen attention to what others wear at BT events.  In the three I've attended in the past year, I cannot recall seeing a single man without a waist covering.  I saw plenty of notch lapels and pre-tied bow ties, but no uncovered waists.  None of these was a wedding, and I suspect everyone owned their own rigs. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by othertravel View Post

Can anybody recommend a set of reasonably priced stud/cuff link sets? Could be antique (I.e. used).

 

I bought my vintage Krementz set on eBay and consider it a steal.  I had to have my waistcoat MTO to accommodate the four buttons that are part of the set.

 

Processed By eBay with ImageMagick, R1.1.1.M2b

post #1905 of 3651

A couple of noob questions: 

 

On the shoe subject, while laceless is preferable, is there an occasion where laced are inappropriate? 

 

And for waistcoats, I personally would prefer a waistcoat over a cummerbund- is there any situation where a waistcoat is not recommended/not acceptable? 

 

Ive found otr waistcoats appropriate for black tie very rare. Those of you who own one, how did you go about finding it? 

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