The State of Black Tie: Your Observations

I will try and take a full length picture when I get back home....



johnvw said:

Not really sure what point you are making here, since a reference to the "buttoning point" of the jacket is not part of your original post. www.blacktieguide.com (considered by many on SF to be an authority on black tie) points out that the regular (or lounge) suit and the tuxedo do not share a common heritage and, hence, should exhibit stylistic differences. Structurally, a suit jacket and a dinner jacket should be different in certain key details such as type of lapels, presence of silk facing, number of buttons, and vents (or lack thereof). Do you mean by your last sentence that each should button at the same place on the jacket?

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Will I get a response to this question?



johnvw said:

Will I get a response to this question?

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Im not really an expert but if i may throw my 10c in here. A regular black tie dinner jacket is almost the same as a suit jacket, except when you follow tradition, it is peak/shawl lapels, has peak/grosgain facings and if you want to be really conservative then no vents. Usually the buttoning point should be at the point in the jacket which would give the best shape to the jacket, usually this is usually slightly below or slightly above your belly button, so if pants are worn at the natural waist there should be no shirt showing while the jacket is buttoned. With suit jackets this point might be a very high buttoning point like what was seen on suits in the 90's, but as dinner jackets/tuxedos are suppose to be more traditional the point should be nearer your belly button. Also normally suits are 3 or 2 or 3/2 3/2.5 etc while tuxedos especially SB ones should be 1 button

Would be concerned by whether the trousers and dinner jacket would match. Even if made from the same cloth you will see variations between batches

Oh, and I think the lapels are a bit anaemic

R-O-T



jeff13007 said:

Im not really an expert but if i may throw my 10c in here. A regular black tie dinner jacket is almost the same as a suit jacket, except when you follow tradition, it is peak/shawl lapels, has peak/grosgain facings and if you want to be really conservative then no vents. Usually the buttoning point should be at the point in the jacket which would give the best shape to the jacket, usually this is usually slightly below or slightly above your belly button, so if pants are worn at the natural waist there should be no shirt showing while the jacket is buttoned. With suit jackets this point might be a very high buttoning point like what was seen on suits in the 90's, but as dinner jackets/tuxedos are suppose to be more traditional the point should be nearer your belly button. Also normally suits are 3 or 2 or 3/2 3/2.5 etc while tuxedos especially SB ones should be 1 button

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I meant, will I get a response from Mafoofan, but thank you for your post. This is a good answer as far as going into detail. However, my original point stands. If a suit jacket is "almost the same" as a dinner jacket, except for differences A, B, C, and D, then the two are not "almost the same"; there are fundamental differences.

You are right, however a tuxedo without the silk/grosgain facings is just a black suit, As i stated in my post the buttoning point depends on where the tailor feels would give the jacket the best shape usually the narrowest point of the body, so Foo is correct in saying there should be no change in the buttoning point. That plus there is nothing stopping me from getting a black suit with peak lapels, non vented, and single buttoned right? that would have the the stylistic points of a tux but would in the end just be a black suit



jeff13007 said:

You are right, however a tuxedo without the silk/grosgain facings is just a black suit, As i stated in my post the buttoning point depends on where the tailor feels would give the jacket the best shape usually the narrowest point of the body, so Foo is correct in saying there should be no change in the buttoning point. That plus there is nothing stopping me from getting a black suit with peak lapels, non vented, and single buttoned right? that would have the the stylistic points of a tux but would in the end just be a black suit

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If a point that you and Mafoofan are making is that a suit jacket and tuxedo jacket should both button where doing so is most flattering to the wearer, fine. However, this still does not make the two "almost the same" overall. The two items differ fundamentally in appearance (classical, maybe not certain modern variations) and lineage.

Maybe it would be best just to move on. Thanks again for your input.



johnvw said:

Will I get a response to this question?

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First of all, lapel styles, silk facings, vents, and the number of buttons don't go toward a jacket's structure. After all, regardless of such details, a dinner jacket will be fitted and put together the same way a suit jacket would be. This includes the buttoning point. Your tailor will probably anchor all your single-breasted jackets at the same buttoning point, regardless of whether each is a one-button, two-button, or three-button jacket. Put another way, the buttoning point on a single-button dinner jacket should be at the same place as the buttoning point on a 3-roll-2 odd jacket, when made by the same tailor for the same client.

Second, and more importantly, aside from facings, all of those details can be found on lounge suits and are not exclusive to dinner jackets. If I ordered a black, peak-lapeled, single-button, ventless lounge suit, I could easily have it converted into a dinner suit later on by adding facings.

This was not meant to be an exercise in semantics. The important takeaway point is that a dinner suit and lounge suit are fundamentally the same in most ways, and minus certain surface details, would be indistinguishable from each other.

johnvw said:

I meant, will I get a response from Mafoofan, but thank you for your post. This is a good answer as far as going into detail. However, my original point stands. If a suit jacket is "almost the same" as a dinner jacket, except for differences A, B, C, and D, then the two are not "almost the same"; there are fundamental differences.

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Again, this was not meant to be a matter of semantics. But if you want to get into it, "almost" is a key modifier.



mafoofan said:

First of all, lapel styles, silk facings, vents, and the number of buttons don't go toward a jacket's structure. After all, regardless of such details, a dinner jacket will be fitted and put together the same way a suit jacket would be. This includes the buttoning point. Your tailor will probably anchor all your single-breasted jackets at the same buttoning point, regardless of whether each is a one-button, two-button, or three-button jacket. Put another way, the buttoning point on a single-button dinner jacket should be at the same place as the buttoning point on a 3-roll-2 odd jacket, when made by the same tailor for the same client.
Second, and more importantly, aside from facings, all of those details can be found on lounge suits and are not exclusive to dinner jackets. If I ordered a black, peak-lapeled, single-button, ventless lounge suit, I could easily have it converted into a dinner suit later on by adding facings.
This was not meant to be an exercise in semantics. The important takeaway point is that a dinner suit and lounge suit are fundamentally the same in most ways, and minus certain surface details, would be indistinguishable from each other.
Again, this was not meant to be a matter of semantics. But if you want to get into it, "almost" is a key modifier.

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Exactly what i was trying to say but you put it much more understandable way.



mafoofan said:

First of all, lapel styles, silk facings, vents, and the number of buttons don't go toward a jacket's structure. After all, regardless of such details, a dinner jacket will be fitted and put together the same way a suit jacket would be. This includes the buttoning point. Your tailor will probably anchor all your single-breasted jackets at the same buttoning point, regardless of whether each is a one-button, two-button, or three-button jacket. Put another way, the buttoning point on a single-button dinner jacket should be at the same place as the buttoning point on a 3-roll-2 odd jacket, when made by the same tailor for the same client.
Second, and more importantly, aside from facings, all of those details can be found on lounge suits and are not exclusive to dinner jackets. If I ordered a black, peak-lapeled, single-button, ventless lounge suit, I could easily have it converted into a dinner suit later on by adding facings.
This was not meant to be an exercise in semantics. The important takeaway point is that a dinner suit and lounge suit are fundamentally the same in most ways, and minus certain surface details, would be indistinguishable from each other.
Again, this was not meant to be a matter of semantics. But if you want to get into it, "almost" is a key modifier.

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A dinner jacket and a suit jacket differ in key ways that allow them to be distinguished from each other, buttoning point aside. The ways in which they differ to allow the distinction between them are as fundamental as ways in which they are the same. Your original point that a dinner jacket is a "modified lounge suit jacket" needed amplifcations not present in the original post. That point has been more adequately made now.



mafoofan said:

Put another way, the buttoning point on a single-button dinner jacket should be at the same place as the buttoning point on a 3-roll-2 odd jacket, when made by the same tailor for the same client.

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Could this potentially mean that a one button SB jacket could be made into a two button...or, even a three button? That is, just be cutting new buttonholes and adding buttons?



F. Corbera said:

Could this potentially mean that a one button SB jacket could be made into a two button...or, even a three button? That is, just be cutting new buttonholes and adding buttons?

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Not potentially. Actually.



F. Corbera said:

Could this potentially mean that a one button SB jacket could be made into a two button...or, even a three button? That is, just be cutting new buttonholes and adding buttons?

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mafoofan said:

Not potentially. Actually.

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Wasn' this a TITc episode?



romafan said:

Wasn' this a TITc episode?

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I'm not sure, but I'm looking forward to a future TitC episode in which 4x1 DBs get turned into less fakakta 6x1s.

I'm glad this discussion has moved past, "Suit jackets and dinner jackets are the same, except for the differences, and the similarities are important" vs. "Suit jackets and dinner jackets are different, except for the similarities, and the differences are important."

Maybe we can move on to other matters, such as converting jackets into other button configurations. Someone else, please continue with this ...