iPhone finally here, the Western Civilization is saved - Page 7

It's a shame that some people are so tied to their image and afraid of conforming that they won't use an operating system which they may find is more usable and functional. I agreed with some points in the article but it sounds like the writer has some pretty bad internal issues. It's not healthy to care *that much* about avoiding a trend, according to me.


So you honeslty think that marketing is the single only reason people buy Apple products? I guess you just haven't listened to even one of the billion explanations people have posted on this board about why they love em.

Okay, compare, say, Toyota, and BMW. Toyota is more affordable, more reliable, has all the functional capabilities of the BMW (except perhaps power), and gets better gas mileage.

So why do people spend the extra $10k to buy the BMW? Because of advertising alone? BMW does have some nice marketing, but I think its mostly because everything feels perfect about the BMW, from the way the doors sound when you shut them to the angle of the dashboard to the tone of orange on the dash functions, and that's not even to begin about the feel of the engine and the suspension. That's the way Apple products (in general) are to me. The click wheel is genius. The way the chrome back compliments the color on the front is great. There is more polish in OS X than there is in Windows. The computer designs are sleek and polished as well. It's a joy to turn on my PowerBook.

damned nerds.

ibm>apple. kthxbye!

Aesthetically, yes.. the analogy holds; however, I think that the BMW is more of an enthusiast's car and the Apple computer is targeted towards the average user, so the comparison starts to break down.

To take it one step further, Apple products are generally locked down and users are restricted to what they can do, so their products are for users who simply want to do what is advertised... surf, email, play music without a lot of fuss. I would imagine that is more of a Toyota customer. They need a reliable car for A to B. The BMW is (was) a pure driving machine for the person who wants the most out of his vehicle.

Anyway.. I'm not trying to pick a side, but I'm just trying to clear up the notion of what Apple's products are meant to be and who is their targeted market.

I don't understand computer flame wars. They're just tools --- use the one that solves your problem best and lets you get on with the rest of your life. It's like arguing over a #2 or #3 Philips screwdriver.

--Andre

Dude, did you even read the article? Obviously you glossed over the part about him being a happy Mac user up until the "apple user superiority complex" got out of hand. I agree that its a shame that people are so "tied to the image" that they won't venture outside it, but that applies more to Mac users than it does PC users. (especially considering the extremely limited choices that a Mac offers in regards to aesthetic and OS choices and the veritable bonanza of custom tailoring of hardware and software outside of the Apple universe) Yes, your computer is shiny and follows a consistant unified design and software aesthetic that you may find pleasing. You may consider the operating system to be "easy to use", and you may find the click wheel to be superior to every other option available in the universe. Other people may find the OS and software confusing, unneccesarily complicated in anything but the simplest tasks, the design to be bland, the smugness and superiority complex of those who use it to be offputting, and the sound quality and higher price of the ipod vs players with more features not to be worth it. (I thought Apple's whole corporate identity was supposed to be based on being an alternative to the mainstream? So how did the iPod become the standard? Marketing!!) Apple doesn't sell computers (haven't for years), they sell prestige, attitude, exclusivity, and the idea that you are "rebelling" from the mainstream - which is sort of preposterous, given the nature of the rebellion is a product system that is only sold in certain "approved" hardware and aesthetic configurations and with only one type of installed OS. Basically they are telling you to ignore a world of choices in personal computing, and to be unique and rebel by letting one company make all the choices for you. They have some pre-packaged "corporate punk music" ideals and are selling it to you at a premium. An apple for checking your email, word processing, and surfing the internet isn't any more "usable" than any other PC performing those same tasks. In fact, for about $200 you can get a computer with another UNIX based GUI that will do 98% of what most adult non-business-use people statistically do on any home computer (excluding gaming of course, the main area where MS windows still KILLS every other operating system ever created, the other being business apps to a lesser extent.) It won't be as pretty looking, but that really has nothing to do with "usability". The article in question is not about "avoiding a trend" its about not supporting a company who has, through their (granted, completely genius, but IMO inherently evil) corporate strategy decided to sell an operating system as a lifestyle, encouraging those who choose it to boast about it and defend it with a attidude that borders on religios fervor, many times based on, or reinforcing the misleading assertions voiced in their ads. Any UK members remember in '03 when the Mac ads were banned for blatantly misleading people into believing that the G5 was the "fastest personal computer available on the market" A claim that was resoundingly refuted over and over by independant testing? (In fact, it has always been the PC, not the Mac pushing the envelope of performance. in computer hardware and general application speed.) Or the HAL 9000 ad from 2000 when Apple claimed that many "other" PC's had failed and caused worldwide chaos because of the Y2k shift, except for Mac's which were immune? Laughable and designed to capitalize on the erroneous fears of media fueled hype, no such worldwide panic or shutdown happened because of Windows code. Or the new Mac vs PC ones, that make it seem like Windows PC's are somehow only good at making pie charts and running business software, and digital cameras will somehow communicate better with a mac, and that a PC won't "work" right out of the box. Remember Brian, that I have never once tried to convince you that Microsoft OS has all the answers to everyone in the world's computer needs. All I am saying is that obviously it is more than adequite to cover 95% of the world's needs,(because it is currently doing so) and even many people who are familiar with MacOS choose WindowsOS over it. (see below) I am and always will be consistant in the fact that I believe in MORE choice and MORE options in hardware and software are always better, which is not Mac's strongsuit. You can't honestly think that the 95-97 percent of people in the world who currently use PC over Macintosh do so because they have NEVER TRIED IT. I know for a fact that almost every student in the US for the last 24 years has used a Mac almost exclusively while in the classroom from first grade all the way up through college. Why didn't all those dozens of millions of school children from 1983 (when Macs for schools became the standard) through today stay with Mac? Nine out of ten times if you walk into a school and look at the computers, they will be Apples. So there goes your "superior usability" theory. If it is so superior, why do the vast majority of people in the US continue to use Windows over MacOS, when they clearly have experience with both OS's? Got any more ill-thought out, yet standard and cliche'd "Apple Propaganda" responses to sling out? Oh, and a big part of usability is the manual interfaces. Apple has consistantly had the worst "stock" mice in the business for over a decade now. The ergonomics and functionality always take second place to the questionable aesthetics of the device. Yes, you can go buy a better mouse, why should you be forced to spend additional money with an Apple for something that every other major manufacturer gives you with the system? I think the marketing is one of the main reasons people buy Apple products, yes. Specifically the intentionally vague or misleading advertisements and false assertions that come out of people's mouths that they heard from the ads that the company puts out. For instance, when's the last time any dedicated PC users on this board had a blue screen of death while running windows 2000 or XP? I'm not looking for any mac owners to answer, just people who use Windows 2000 or XP. Just out of curiosity... I can recall having to do a hard reboot of a mac as many times as I've had to a hard reboot a PC used during the same period of time while in college. And yes that was a brand new G5 tower using OSX, not some old POS. Neither happens very often, but in my (and quite a few other's) personal experience, it happens to both at approximately an equal rate and has been that way for years. One of the billion explanations? The only two I've heard that make any sense: 1: That Mac OS is less prone to virii and spyware than a Windows OS, mostly because of its closed architecture (which has as many bad elements as it does good elements) and its relative lack of market share which makes it generally not worth people's while to program malicious software for it. The PC solution: Don't use your computer as the admin, log in as a user instead. 99% of problem solved. The .1% that remains can be solved by an innocuous av/spyware program, many of which can be found for free, generally take up no noticable resources, and more often than not work perfectly as long as its definitions autoupdate every couple nights while you are sleeping and won't notice. Either that or don't run windows, run UNIX or LINUX. Not really rocket science either way. 2: The aesthetic design of the hardware, which I can understand is pleasing to some people, but it certainly isn't for everyone. (let alone most people) Try getting 100 people to agree on the best looking car currently available for sale today, for example. The PC solution: Pick the case you like best, the monitor you like best, the keyboard and mouse you like best. Problem solved. Horrible, I know, and I know Mac people don't have any idea what I'm talking about, since they believe that PC's all come in ugly rectangular beige plastic boxes... rest assured non brainwashed masses, they most certainly do not! Goddamn I love talking about this. I could probably literally go on like this for ever. Unfortunately nobody will ever read this much information. And no Mac-fanboy will ever admit that he's hyping something that is merely "different". It always has to be "better" than everything else. Which helps them sleep at night I guess.

A #2 is more versatile. Just so you know

Apple reported record revenue and profit, and share price setting new high:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/18/te...ss&oref=slogin

I am pained to say this (as a 20+ year Mac user) but the whole "Steve Jobs is a god who can do no wrong" thing is becoming terribly reminiscent of the Big Brother television commercial that launched the Macintosh on January 22, 1984 during a break in the third quarter of Super Bowl XVIII. http://www.uriahcarpenter.info/movies/Apple.1984.mov (big download)

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb. "

--Andre

"Prada phone by LG" that was reported in this thread has been officially released. http://www.phonescoop.com/news/item.php?n=2034

You're arguing to someone you made up in your head or maybe talked to at one point, but not me. Your points on this topic barely even relate to the computers themselves, and you consistently bring up a moot point: comparing prefab Macs vs. home-made PCs.

I could explain to you how I never said that EVERYONE has to like the design, and how I never said that everyone has to like the OS either. I could also explain to you how I never hyped it as being 'different' or 'against the mainstream,' and how I think they're great machines, but also see many benefits in the PC market (I have a home-made PC I've been keeping up to date for 5 years or so). I could mention that, but you'd rather just argue against your straw man.

The idea of customizing and flexibility on a Mac is fairly new. I hated Macs until a couple years ago, when I starting using them for design, after OS X came out. Every school I went to since 1988 has used Apples, and you're right, I hated the old school Macs. Two of my buddies feel the same way (now owners of iMacs or PowerBooks or MacBooks, and BTW, they love them). Obviously there are cases of people who have tried Macs post OS X, thought they sucked and gave up. But I'd be willing to bet money that if you surveyed 1000 people who have never used a computer after 10 days of Mac and 10 days of PC which they preferred, they'd all pick the Mac.

I never said something so ridiculous as, "I like it because it's easy to use." That's a gross oversimplification. I like it because it does everything the way I want the computer to do things. The buttons are all in the right places. Fonts are integrated incredibly well and don't require restarts and frustration everytime I want to install a new one. The transparent backdrop makes switching between files incredibly easy. Exposé is a joy to use. Dashboard less so, but still convenient. There are a couple ways to get files open and browse the drives, and that's good. You don't need a little animated dog telling you where to click, and searching is integrated perfectly into every program. The dock > start menu. The application menu at the top > application menu on every window. Apple menu in the top left > start menu.

Do all these benefits make it 'easier' to use? I suppose they do. I'd rather think of it as 'not frustrating.'

My points on this topic barely relate to the computers because people who are fans of the computers barely relate to the computers. Even your own "why I love mac" quote below has 100% to do with the operating system and 0% to do with the computer. The computer itself is nothing remarkable. It is more like a windows PC than ever,(IMO a good thing) but still with less flexibility. Nowhere in my above statement did I mention home-made PC's. You are mistaken. The only reason you are getting that from my post is that ANY person, computer company, or store can make a PC. Only Apple can make a Mac, why? Because they have locked down production, stifled third party innovation, and charged a premium for accessory manufacturing that is frankly, IMO criminal. If I want a green case, with lights, green monitor, green keyboard and green mouse, on a computer there are hundreds of companies that will make me one. With a warranty, service plan, and the whole works. I can get it with Windows, Linux, Unix, or nothing. I can get it with a small form factor, a mid tower, a server case... whatever. I can only get a Mac in white, sometimes black, in the same case as everyone else, and running MacOS. How can one answer be correct for everyone? IF I want a green Mac... what are my options? I'm sorry if I gave the impression that you did. I am using you more as a sounding board representing the "mac" side of this issue than anything else. I hope you don't take any of this as personal criticism. I could frankly care less how you spend your money or talk to other people about it. And yet the design and the OS are always the major arguments for switching from PC to Mac. That is why I brought them up. People who champion Mac in a public fora never fail to mention how "pretty" their computer is. How much "design" went into it. Well. I'm telling you right now that not everyone is going to like the look, and people who don't, are likely to think that their designs aren't nearly as well thought out as you assert they are. I always get grief here for stating that Apple's designs are fugly. They don't look like high end electronics to me, they look like toys, and the OS looks like it was made by playschool. I don't need stuff bouncing up and down at the bottom of my screen, I don't need all my icons in a little bubble, or excessivly glossy and cartoonish looking. I'm sorry. Its a widely shared sentiment among PC fanboys. And as for being "different"? That has been the core of Apple's slogan and corporate identity for years. And people still believe that Macs are somehow "different" than PC. Well the only way they are different anymore is that there's a limited upgrade map on the X86 chip/mobo/compiler that apple bought from Intel, you can't install its OS on anything else, and if you happen to like the look of the hardware, you can't install the software you prefer on it instead of OSX (without, of course buying OSX and running bootcamp or whatever) OSX is definitely different than Windows, but its not a difference that many people are going to care about. Why? Because for the last 20 years you have been pointing out things that are wrong with Windows. Windows has been fixing them. Today, Most of your traditional arguments hold no water and you end up looking like rabid fanboys reiterating a party line without actually doing any research for yourself. AHA! Here we get to the root of the problem. Macs are great for people who are unfamiliar with using a computer. I will never argue that point. The basic user interface is dumbed down and glossy enough to intimidate almost nobody. Only when you get beond the desktop do people generally develop a preference of one vs the other. The main problem is that finding 1000 people who have never used a computer gets harder and harder every day, and saying that they would "all pick mac" is a little optimistic don't you think? I think most of them probably would, but some of them would find something that they like better about PC, or just don't like the interface. As I said, OSX isn't the answer for everyone. That being said, for many current computer users, Apple offers very little that the average windows PC user doesn't already have. If you like the look of the OS, super. If you don't, its completely different than what you are used to. The desktop doesn't operate the way you'd expect it to, and figuring out how to do things like eject a disk when there is no eject button, change the global search engine in safari, why the Home and End keys do different things than on ANY OTHER COMPUTER SYSTEM EVER INVENTED WHILE BEING IN THE SAME PLACE (for no apparent reason)... The "Backspace" key being renamed "Delete" which does something completely different than I'd expect from the name being a PC user, The fact that programs continue to run in your dock after you think you've closed them, These things drive people (me) crazy. Things that are accessable from the windows desktop with one click (desktop appearance and themes for example), are placed in some control panels folder somewhere on a Mac who's file hierarchy makes no sense to me, and you have to use "finder" which has never really worked for me, because everything I'm looking for has a different name than on the machines I'm used to. Amongst too many other quirks and inconsistancies to mention. Doesn't it sound like that means its easy for you to use? I hate to be "oversimplifying" things... but I find windows to be extremely easy to use for the same reasons you think OSX is extremely easy to use. It does what I want, how I want it to do it without me having to rearrange my entire way of thinking to accomadate my computer. OSX is a battle every time I use it, I hope to god that the program I want is in the dock already because trying to find it is like going into a library that uses something other than dewey decimal system to organize the books. Until someone explains that the books are organized alphabetically by subject (just to be "different" you know) you have no chance of finding anything, and even then, is the travel book on Japan I'm looking for going to be found in the "T" for travel or the "J" for Japan section? Who the hell knows? I'll find it eventually, but its a pain in the ass to do so. Oh, and why would you need to restart your computer after adding a font? I don't get it. I just added two fonts to my computer as I typed this without restarting. So... WTF are you talking about? An animated dog tells me where to click? Your argument again is only geared twords people who have never used a computer before and really has no bearing on this arguement. The things that you would need a guide to explain to a newbie on a PC are the same things you would need a guide to explain to you as a newbie on the Mac. Installing software, finding the software on your computer that isn't in the dock/desktop, doing tasks like burning a cd, etc.. There are three things that MOST home computer users spend MOST of their time on a computer doing. It's NOT inherently any easier to surf the web, email, or open a word processing program on a Mac than anything else. I can do all these things from my desktop, you can do them all from your "dock" whats the difference? I've never seen anyone use the "dog" (in fact I've never even seen the "dog", I remember it being a talking pencil or something...huh. It was 1994, and it was only up for about two minutes... then I figured out how to turn it off. Sorry if the recollection is fuzzy) As for the "searching" being integrated perfectly into every program, again only if you can figure out what the name of the thing is you are searching for. Being familiar with the windows file, folder, and tools names, I'm completely lost when I want to find something on a mac. I'm glad you found something not-frustrating for yourself. But again, just because you can figure out MacOS without a problem, doesn't mean that everyone else can. There are some things that I wanted to do in Mac that were so ass-backwards that I couldn't believe it. You have to open (and learn UNIX) vi editor to rewrite the code for Safari if you don't want US English Google as your default search. Huh? Seriously? What do you mean I have to take my index finger off the mouse completely to be able to right click with the mighty mouse, and why does my hand hurt after using it for ten minutes? (there's that pesky design aesthetic over ergonomic form and function again) Why is it that when a file is selected, and I hit enter, it thinks I want to re-name the file? When I hit the red x, why is the program still running? These sound like mere annoyances, but they add up to a great deal of frustration for a lot of people who don't understand WHY Apple has to do things so (to them) counterintuitively.

Dammit dude you type so much.


How is this counterintuitive? I want to close DSC1022.NEF without closing Adobe Photoshop. I want to close my Opera browser window but I want the downloads to keep running in the background. I want to close the iTunes window but I want my music to keep playing.

Can touch on the rest later but right now Im trying to relax

I'm a leo. I have a driving desire for my opinion to be "heard".


If you are driving down the road in a place with somewhat unfamiliar road signs, you see a red sign with an X on it near an intersection, what would be your first instinct? Close your eyes? No, of course not, YOU STOP.

THAT is intuitive. Much like a red button with an x in a program is supposed to stop the program, intuitive programming takes relatively universal or easily identifiable signs and colors and uses them to accomplish the same thing in the program. Evaporating the visible indication that the program is running, while continuing to run the program regardless of what you do or don't want isn't intuitive...

I hope that answers your question, have a good rest.


That sounds like a minimize function to me, maybe a RED BUTTON WITH AN X isn't what you want to use for that. Maybe yellow? Wait, there is a yellow button already, what does that do again?

Werd man, I find OSX to be absolutely frustrating to use. Apple Mice are retarded, I remember being forced to use a iMac in HS and use that worthless single button "cookie" shaped mouse that was uncomfortable and had a problem of clicking when I would just rest my hand on it. Like I said before I had no problems using code in DOS and Atari XT GUI wasnt bad either, Unix is ok but not something I would consider for day to day use. I never really liked the MAC it always seemed more trouble than it was worth to try and do anything I ever wanted in it. I think the mac does one really good thing and that is offer a computer that is super simple for basic tasks and shiny (probably still confusing for some of the simpletons who have no reason to even be behind the keyboard of a computer) and does not have the fuss of needing to compare its processors and features to compareable computers of other brands (as Apple is the only company). Shit if anything breaks on it the customer is pretty much SOL, cant upgrade majority of parts. So Basically only offering a couple basic options and then packaging it into a monitor and sometimes a desk lamp looking thing keeps people where they want to be with life handed to them nothing to really think about. There in lies the problem. Computers are too easy to use these days. You should have to learn a thing or two about how to properly use and opperate a computer before you can buy one. Would save tons of time with the Tech Support calls (and for some reason people have the idea that I should help them for free since I sold them a computer in my store. Thats what factory Tech Support is for. I dont have time to answer their asinine questions. They spout error codes at me like I care/know what the hell they are talking about over the phone, irks me just a bit). Another thing that kinda bugs me is that iPod is now the name of any MP3 Player to the majority of dimwhits that roam the streets. I have even seen kids at my school with white ear buds for other MP3 players (like a Sansa C250, which is black then they bought white aftermarket buds for it, lame!). I suppose that is the way things go though, most everyone wants to look or act trendy, even the kids that are against the grain (goths in the past, now Emo kids) are just as run of the mill as the preppy kids they just shop at different stores.