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Law Schools - Where and Why? - Page 9

post #121 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by zbromer View Post

I don't entirely discount the gloom and doom discussion about law school. There is a lot of reality to what is being said. However, I find the "don't go to law school unless it's a top 14" discussion to be a lot of bunk.
I never understand why people don't give this advice, but, if you are going to a school outside the top 20 or so, you should strongly consider going to a school in the region where you want to practice. There are lots of perfectly solid law schools putting out highly qualified lawyers that are ranked between about 25-75. The significant difference is that they are placing students regionally, as opposed to nationally. However, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, if you are comfortable with practicing in the region where the school is.
For instance, if you want to practice in Atlanta, you should go to UGA (ranked 35th) over a number of more highly ranked schools. I know a lot of successful lawyers in NYC who went to Brooklyn (ranked 67th), and I know a lot of lawyers who couldn't get jobs in NYC and went to considerably higher ranked schools. If you want to practice in a NYC, DC, LA, SF, Chicago, etc., then going to UNLV is not going to work. If you want to practice in Vegas, going to UNLV is probably a good idea.
Less prestigious and competitive regional schools still graduate lots of great lawyers. Not everyone wants to practice in a major city or needs to make $160K in his first year. There are lots of great schools for these people.

This is horrifically bad advice.

Brooklyn Law School will put you around 150K-200K in the hole for three years of study. There is absolutely no argument for spending that type of money on a mediocre degree that will give you access to such a limited market.

The issue here is what you're paying for and what you get; In the case of a T14 you pay 130K-200K and you get a legitimate shot at a market paying job. At a place like BLS, you pay 1150k-200K and get a maybe 10% shot at NYC BIGLAW (or less in recent years) and no shot on almost anything else.

The bottom line when it comes to law schools is this; T14 might be worth it at full price but everywhere else is only worth it with significant scholarship money.
post #122 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord-Barrington View Post

This is horrifically bad advice.
Brooklyn Law School will put you around 150K-200K in the hole for three years of study. There is absolutely no argument for spending that type of money on a mediocre degree that will give you access to such a limited market.
The issue here is what you're paying for and what you get; In the case of a T14 you pay 130K-200K and you get a legitimate shot at a market paying job. At a place like BLS, you pay 1150k-200K and get a maybe 10% shot at NYC BIGLAW (or less in recent years) and no shot on almost anything else.
The bottom line when it comes to law schools is this; T14 might be worth it at full price but everywhere else is only worth it with significant scholarship money.

+1
post #123 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord-Barrington View Post

This is horrifically bad advice.
Brooklyn Law School will put you around 150K-200K in the hole for three years of study. There is absolutely no argument for spending that type of money on a mediocre degree that will give you access to such a limited market.
The issue here is what you're paying for and what you get; In the case of a T14 you pay 130K-200K and you get a legitimate shot at a market paying job. At a place like BLS, you pay 1150k-200K and get a maybe 10% shot at NYC BIGLAW (or less in recent years) and no shot on almost anything else.
The bottom line when it comes to law schools is this; T14 might be worth it at full price but everywhere else is only worth it with significant scholarship money.

I'll give this a very close (-1), although I think you do make a good point about spending $$$ and going to a school that will allows no opportunity to earn $$$,$$$,$$$ when you get out.

But to the other guy's point, you can go to a non-T14 school and be successful in a law career. Really, do I need to prove this point further . . . there are obviously only 14 schools in the T14, but plenty of good lawyers who make money who didn't attend those schools. Some of them actually make good money, because in places like Seattle,San Diego, Atlanta, Portland, and other second-tier destinations, they still have large firms who quickly run out of the T14 applicants. As far as I know, those who graduate from University of Washington, Seattle U, UGA, Emory and other regional schools fill in those slots next to the Ivy League graduates and get the same paycheck ($90,000 to $130,000 to start).

The key is not to spend T14 money on a second or third tier law school (yes, it can be done, especially if you qualify for in-state tuition) and work your ass off if you want BigLaw money in one of those second-tier locations. Thinking you'll get into NYC with a degree from Brooklyn or Pace or someplace like that . . . you're nuts to take that risk.
post #124 of 418
I think both of the above posts complement the whole point together.... don't spend t14 $$ on a 2nd tier school but don't forget the regional nature of recruiting and job positioning. Clearly there ARE plenty of attorneys making good money who didn't graduate from t14. 1/2 + 1/2 = +1
post #125 of 418
Non-T14 schools seem like a good way to segue into much more enjoyable regional non-biglaw jobs - I have no idea how the thought of working for corporate firms became so universally appealing.
post #126 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzito View Post

But to the other guy's point, you can go to a non-T14 school and be successful in a law career. Really, do I need to prove this point further . . . there are obviously only 14 schools in the T14, but plenty of good lawyers who make money who didn't attend those schools. Some of them actually make good money, because in places like Seattle,San Diego, Atlanta, Portland, and other second-tier destinations, they still have large firms who quickly run out of the T14 applicants. As far as I know, those who graduate from University of Washington, Seattle U, UGA, Emory and other regional schools fill in those slots next to the Ivy League graduates and get the same paycheck ($90,000 to $130,000 to start).

now Texas is T14 so theres 15 schools tongue.gif

i agree with most that has been said

to the dude immediately above, its the only obvious choice for those of us with 200k+ in debt
post #127 of 418
I don't really have anything to add that hasn't been said already, but I'm glad to see UGA law mentioned a few times.

I think we've got a great program that's only getting better, but when you consider the fact that most of us are only paying $4-5k/semester and that the cost of living in Athens is dirt cheap, the value is incredible.
post #128 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofcoffee View Post

Non-T14 schools seem like a good way to segue into much more enjoyable regional non-biglaw jobs - I have no idea how the thought of working for corporate firms became so universally appealing.

Prestige + Buckets of Money.
post #129 of 418
im in my final year at gtown law and pretty much everyone i know has found a job by now. those of us who were fortunate enough to get a biglaw job are counting our blessings because i have some friends who ended up with jobs they had to settle for or did not intend getting when they first entered gtown ... gov or regional hometown firms

the issue i hear most from kids at the lower t14 end and non t14 schools is why am i taking loans out and working 60-80+ hour work weeks, doing the same work but getting less compensation? so yes kids at non t14 schools can get good jobs at regional midsized firms but they question was it worth the schooling, loans, and work load after graduation for basically the same work for less prestige and money. plus moving up the ladder or lateraling into the biglaw market is hard if you start at those regional firms. and even if the hours are better at midsized firms compared to biglaw, the questions of was it worth it are still the same
post #130 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomkoreandude View Post

im in my final year at gtown law and pretty much everyone i know has found a job by now. those of us who were fortunate enough to get a biglaw job are counting our blessings because i have some friends who ended up with jobs they had to settle for or did not intend getting when they first entered gtown ... gov or regional hometown firms
the issue i hear most from kids at the lower t14 end and non t14 schools is why am i taking loans out and working 60-80+ hour work weeks, doing the same work but getting less compensation? so yes kids at non t14 schools can get good jobs at regional midsized firms but they question was it worth the schooling, loans, and work load after graduation for basically the same work for less prestige and money. plus moving up the ladder or lateraling into the biglaw market is hard if you start at those regional firms. and even if the hours are better at midsized firms compared to biglaw, the questions of was it worth it are still the same

It's also worth nothing that the best possible outcome for most law students is to graduate with big debt, join a large firm, and proceed to grind away a good 4-5 year of 60-90 hour weeks doing low level associate work, consisting mostly of glorified document review. The exit options afterward are often quite good (in house counsel in industry, government, etc.) but it's a pretty tough life and, regardless of what anyone tells you, you're for the most part not doing interesting work.

It's worth keeping in mind as well.
post #131 of 418
Yup, sounds about right. I will be 200k in debt in May frown.gif. I have a start date for the firm for Sept but the previous 2-3 classes have been deferred. My year is supposed to be the first that will be "on time." Fingers crossed it stays that way
post #132 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord-Barrington View Post

join a large firm, and proceed to grind away a good 4-5 year of 60-90 hour weeks doing low level associate work, consisting mostly of glorified document review. The exit options afterward are often quite good (in house counsel in industry, government, etc.) but it's a pretty tough life and, regardless of what anyone tells you, you're for the most part not doing interesting work.
It's worth keeping in mind as well.

Honestly, in what lucrative career is this not the case? I'm sure entry level doctors, bankers, consultants, SV programmers start with grunt work over long hours too.
post #133 of 418
as much as being a lawyer (biglaw) sucks, entry level doctors have it bad as well and its arguably worse although their hours and pay get a lot better over time

you shouldnt go into any professional field without knowing what your getting in to. but for whatever reason, law students seem to have no real idea of what their lifestyle and are really unrealistic. doctors, dentists, invest bankrs, etc all know what they are going into
post #134 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConcernedParent View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord-Barrington View Post

join a large firm, and proceed to grind away a good 4-5 year of 60-90 hour weeks doing low level associate work, consisting mostly of glorified document review. The exit options afterward are often quite good (in house counsel in industry, government, etc.) but it's a pretty tough life and, regardless of what anyone tells you, you're for the most part not doing interesting work.
It's worth keeping in mind as well.

Honestly, in what lucrative career is this not the case? I'm sure entry level doctors, bankers, consultants, SV programmers start with grunt work over long hours too.

Keep in mind that going the Biglaw route is the best case scenario in financial terms and the exit options are NOT always lucrative ones. The worst case scenarios post-law school are things like failing the bar more than once and then trying to pay off your student loans while waiting tables or teaching high school.

My friends who finished med school all got jobs as doctors, but I know plenty of people who never got a legal career off the ground following law school.
post #135 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConcernedParent View Post

Honestly, in what lucrative career is this not the case? I'm sure entry level doctors, bankers, consultants, SV programmers start with grunt work over long hours too.

Here's the major difference:

Bankers start by doing bitch work and terrible hours but at the end of the rainbow (managing director level) for those who make it are literally riches beyond their wildest dreams. MDs at big banks can take home literally tens of millions of dollars, not to mention exit options that are as lucrative. Making partner at a place like Skadden or WLRK is probably as hard as doing it at Goldman Sachs but the pay is far, far below what you would make as an investment banker. The payoff just isn't the same, period.

Most doctors work crazy hours at the beginning of their careers, then they work less crazy hours, then they barely work at all. Not a very good comparison.

Consultants work tough hours but an analyst at a place like Bain of BCG really is doing interesting work from day one, not just poring over document review. I don't think the two jobs can even be compared, aside from the long hours.
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