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Canvas and suit construction - Page 2

post #16 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefferyd View Post

No.
A padded lapel refers to the fact that there is a separate layer of canvas which has been gradually rolled while stitching the canvas layer to the cloth, giving this result
2851527658_7ec6e4a1c6.jpg
A flat-fused lapel will roll a little bit, but never as much as a padded canvas lapel- compare the limp, black stuff in the photo above (fusible) to the canvas next to it.

Thanks for that. I guess what I was asking is it possible to have a fully fused garment with a padded lapel to create the roll? Sometimes we may see a beautiful lapel roll and automatically think that this must be a canvassed garment. Could they be fooling us with that separate layer of canvas for the roll?
post #17 of 63
Loved reading this. Thank you!
post #18 of 63
So helpful and much appreciated; thank you.
post #19 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanComposition View Post

Great read, as always.

+1
post #20 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMRouse View Post

Loved reading this. Thank you!

+2
post #21 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by NORE View Post

Thanks for that. I guess what I was asking is it possible to have a fully fused garment with a padded lapel to create the roll? Sometimes we may see a beautiful lapel roll and automatically think that this must be a canvassed garment. Could they be fooling us with that separate layer of canvas for the roll?

The fully-fused garment won't have a "padded" lapel in the sense of a pad-stitched lapel. It's only going to get pad-stitched if it has been canvassed; no pad-stitching on the lapel will occur if there is no canvas on it. There is lapel roll on a fusible jacket, in fact I have several with a decent lapel roll, but it's going to get limp sooner than a pad-stitched canvas lapel roll as the jacket is worn and ages.

I have no idea if there are RTW jackets with perhaps thicker fusible in the lapel, giving it more body, or if that's even possible. Maybe Jeffrey D can say?
post #22 of 63
Great info...thanks!!
post #23 of 63
Edited
post #24 of 63
Excellent info jefferyd.

Regarding half canvas, I view it as a half measure and more of a marketing gimmick. Fully fused is perfectly fine for entry level suits and has certainly served me well but the next level was fully canvassed.

As such since many sales folks really don't know, I find the pinch test to be really useful. If the cloth pinched at several points in the chest feels even the slightest bit stiffer/different compared to the arm or back than I conclude fusing is present and thus disqualified.

As to the super thin and light suitings that need the light weight fusing you discussed, what is the point of having really nice fine cloth and adulterating it with fusing! I'll take puckering any day over that
post #25 of 63
Edited

I think some quality half canvassed makers don't apply fusing on the garments however I'm not 100% sure as I'm not a tailor.
Based on my limited experience only when I pinched I found out the coats had no canvas nor fusing at the bottom half.
post #26 of 63
awesome post , cheers!
post #27 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NORE View Post

is it possible to have a fully fused garment with a padded lapel to create the roll? Sometimes we may see a beautiful lapel roll and automatically think that this must be a canvassed garment. Could they be fooling us with that separate layer of canvas for the roll?

A garment which has canvas in the lapel but not all the way down the front is a half-canvas garment. Nobody is fooling anybody.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Svenn View Post

JefferyD,
I recently had my tailor make me a completely unlined and unstructured jacket, in a thick heavy wool, that honestly appears to have just as much shape as a fully-canvassed jacket I also have. Is it possible that with darts and enough ironwork, a tailor can add just as much shape to a heavy unstructured fabric than a thin fabric with canvassing?
Many thanks

Yes, in general, thick, heavy cloth requires less support but overall the garment will be much heavier than one which has finer cloth but a little more structure, so there is little point in purposely selecting a heavy cloth for that reason only.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agatha Crusty View Post

I have no idea if there are RTW jackets with perhaps thicker fusible in the lapel, giving it more body, or if that's even possible.
Not really. As mentioned, it is the combination of the pad stitching and the quality of the animal hair that gives the real bloom to the lower 2/3 of the lapel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenon View Post

Regarding half canvas, I view it as a half measure and more of a marketing gimmick.

Please elaborate on the reason you have come to this conclusion, as in the OP I explained what benefits were to be found in making half-canvas garments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenon View Post

If the cloth pinched at several points in the chest feels even the slightest bit stiffer/different compared to the arm or back than I conclude fusing is present and thus disqualified.
As to the super thin and light suitings that need the light weight fusing you discussed, what is the point of having really nice fine cloth and adulterating it with fusing! I'll take puckering any day over that

The point is the overall weight of the garment. Grossly oversimplified, compare two garments, one made from 400g cloth, one from 250g cloth that needs some skin fusing; you can hardly feel the skin fusing, it is so light.

3 meters cloth x 400g= 1200g
Full canvas front 150g
Total weight = 1350g

3 meters cloth x 250g= 750g
Half canvas front 80g
Skin fuse 20g
Total weight= 850g

The second weighs less than the first by almost 40%. In hot climates that makes a huge difference in comfort. Your comment about adulterating and puckers are uninformed and add nothing constructive to this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTA View Post

I think some quality half canvassed makers don't apply fusing on the garments however I'm not 100% sure as I'm not a tailor.
Based on my limited experience only when I pinched I found out the coats had no canvas nor fusing at the bottom half.

This is not correct. Please see the diagrams posted above.
post #28 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefferyd View Post


Please elaborate on the reason you have come to this conclusion, as in the OP I explained what benefits were to be found in making half-canvas garments.
The point is the overall weight of the garment. Grossly oversimplified, compare two garments, one made from 400g cloth, one from 250g cloth that needs some skin fusing; you can hardly feel the skin fusing, it is so light.
3 meters cloth x 400g= 1200g
Full canvas front 150g
Total weight = 1350g
3 meters cloth x 250g= 750g
Half canvas front 80g
Skin fuse 20g
Total weight= 850g
The second weighs less than the first by almost 40%. In hot climates that makes a huge difference in comfort. Your comment about adulterating and puckers are uninformed and add nothing constructive to this thread.

First I want to make sure everyone understands I am not disputing any of the pros and cons you mentioned for all 3.

It just seems that nowadays there are so many inexpensive quality suits that are full canvassed that in price alone the half canvassed should reasonably get squeezed out. Just recently here in Montreal I purchased some fully canvassed suits at $800 each with nice cloth made by a respectable maker at a store considered to upcharge on everything (Harry Rosens). That type of price is often found on fused suits. I could be mistaken and there are half canvassed suits alot cheaper than $800 but I would guess not.

TBH I was not aware that some fully canvassed suits with really fine cloth used skin fusing as routine before you mentioned it. My tailor did mention that he wanted to use a very light fusing layer on a very light weight summer silk wool blend because it was so difficult to tailor without it. He did mention that without the fusing layer there would be risk of puckering and instability with perspiration/humidity. I have a real fascination with light cloths and love how they feel and move and reflect light. The cloths on my unfused suits have a bouncy quality that seems to play with the light. This quality is absent on my fused suits that also have the fine cloths. They don't move the same. Also my fused suits run hotter which I suspect is due to the non-permeable fusing adhesive. Again i have no experience with the skin fusing so maybe the above doesn't apply. However I feel that the pros you discussed with half canvassed are overshadowed by the fusings I have experienced.
post #29 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefferyd View Post

A garment which has canvas in the lapel but not all the way down the front is a half-canvas garment. Nobody is fooling anybody.

This answered my question perfectly. Thanks
post #30 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefferyd View Post

A garment which has canvas in the lapel but not all the way down the front is a half-canvas garment. Nobody is fooling anybody.

This is not correct. Please see the diagrams posted above.

Thanks, clear now.
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