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Diemme Footwear - Page 4

post #46 of 88
I grew up in Kingston, Ontario. It's right on the lake, so it's slushy for about 4 months of the year.

Snow is nothing. You can wear anything in snow. The only thing you really need for tramping around any snowy city is a thick enough sole, for insulation. When I go back to visit, I typically wear crepe soled Trickers. They work just fine. The truth is that no sole is going to save you from black ice, which is the really treacherous thing, if you are not careful. Of course, if you wear leather soles, you are fucking both yourself and your shoes, but as long as you are wearing some sort of rubber sole, you are good re. traction. tbh, I wear sneakers most of the winter, and we get snow here in Northern Idaho, though a piddly amount compared to Eastern Ontario..

Now, slush, slush is another beast, and no sole is going to protect your feet from slush. For adequate protection from that, you need proper Goretex boots and a bellows tongue. I wear Vasque Sundowners that are further treated for that. Those will keep you dry unless you are literally going calf deep in slush, in which case, you probably deserver to have cold, wet, feet.

So, don't worry about the soles on Diemmes. They are fine, until they are not. And in the case that they are not, the uppers wiil not be adequate either.
post #47 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

Diemme is not even carried in proper outdoor stores. If you are looking for a workboot, go into an actual workwear store and get some Danners. If you want to get a pair of hiker hiking boots, go into a proper outdoor store and pick up a pair of Vasque Sundowners, which run maybe $200, tops. I mean, if you expect to go hiking in Diemme boots, you might also expect While Mountaineering to also make proper mountaineering gear.

It's funny that you mention Danners, cause my pair of Stumptown (I guess the branding geared towards fashunz) mountain lights have been surprisingly super. They're heavy, waterproof, and though not ideal, they have lasted me through many, many miles of hiking. That said, I've been very pleased with the Danners and they've grown on me a lot, and they're still going strong. Look pretty great with all the White Mountaineering and Nonnative crap I got too

When I got my Diemmes I couldn't even compare them to the Danners, The Diemmes felt flimsy and very definitely more as a style statement than anything. I wasn't expecting crazy ruggedness, but after being pleasantly surprised at how good my Danners are, I have to say I was a little let down by the Diemmes. They have their place though, I guess.
post #48 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

Diemme is not even carried in proper outdoor stores.

Incorrect, they were a small Italian brand until 5-6 years ago and until then they were only sold in Italian hiking shops.

http://www.diemmestore.it/index.php

The sneakers etc. are new and came after the fashion business started.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

I grew up in Kingston, Ontario. It's right on the lake, so it's slushy for about 4 months of the year.

Snow is nothing. You can wear anything in snow. The only thing you really need for tramping around any snowy city is a thick enough sole, for insulation. When I go back to visit, I typically wear crepe soled Trickers.

So, don't worry about the soles on Diemmes. They are fine, until they are not. And in the case that they are not, the uppers wiil not be adequate either.

Canadian and inland American winter climate has nothing to do with the European winter, as our snow is much more wet than the Canadian version.

The christy soles on diemmes are not like the ones on RW's etc. the traction grills are not as deep and don't really work in snow.

There's a small bridge right next to where I live, which is made of untreated wood (great idea I know) and it gets slippery as hell when wet, my mothers lacrosse snowpacs have grip like you wouldn't believe on there, but my diemmes slide around like a pair of leather soles shoes even in the slightest bit of rain, also last but not least the soles west down before 400km, which is ridiculous.

I chatted to with a pair last winter, who was out sledding with his kid and he had to stand in a certain way not to fall, while his kid ran around like a bat out of hell.
post #49 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by g transistor View Post

It's funny that you mention Danners, cause my pair of Stumptown (I guess the branding geared towards fashunz) mountain lights have been surprisingly super. They're heavy, waterproof, and though not ideal, they have lasted me through many, many miles of hiking. That said, I've been very pleased with the Danners and they've grown on me a lot, and they're still going strong. Look pretty great with all the White Mountaineering and Nonnative crap I got too

When I got my Diemmes I couldn't even compare them to the Danners, The Diemmes felt flimsy and very definitely more as a style statement than anything. I wasn't expecting crazy ruggedness, but after being pleasantly surprised at how good my Danners are, I have to say I was a little let down by the Diemmes. They have their place though, I guess.

They are not proper work or outdoor boots, for heavy use. They are lighter and more comfortable though, and if you are into that look (not really my thing, since I really did a lot of mountaineering, and it;s hard for me to reconcile that with street wear) they are great for, say, a Florentine winter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Find Finn View Post

Incorrect, they were a small Italian brand until 5-6 years ago and until then they were only sold in Italian hiking shops.

http://www.diemmestore.it/index.php
I know, but what this thread is all about is not their core line, but the stuff geared towards boutiques. It's the same of every company. I like Viberg boots with the deconstructed toe on the 2030 last for casualwear. I have also wildfire firefighting credentials, and going into the brush to do that type of work without a reinforced toebox is insane.
Quote:
The sneakers etc. are new and came after the fashion business started.
Canadian and inland American winter climate has nothing to do with the European winter, as our snow is much more wet than the Canadian version.

The christy soles on diemmes are not like the ones on RW's etc. the traction grills are not as deep and don't really work in snow.

There's a small bridge right next to where I live, which is made of untreated wood (great idea I know) and it gets slippery as hell when wet, my mothers lacrosse snowpacs have grip like you wouldn't believe on there, but my diemmes slide around like a pair of leather soles shoes even in the slightest bit of rain, also last but not least the soles west down before 400km, which is ridiculous.

I chatted to with a pair last winter, who was out sledding with his kid and he had to stand in a certain way not to fall, while his kid ran around like a bat out of hell.

It's not the inland US or Canada. I grew up right beside a lake, and the temperature often fluctuated close to freezing. It's super slippery and slushy, and we get tons of black ice. I'd put pretty decent money on the slipperyness factor. As kids, we'd run around in sneakers all winter, in the snow, because boots, when I was growing up, was super uncool. I think that for a sole to be really helpful, you need to wear spikes (my parents, who are in their 60s, do).
post #50 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

I know, but what this thread is all about is not their core line, but the stuff geared towards boutiques. It's the same of every company. I like Viberg boots with the deconstructed toe on the 2030 last for casualwear. I have also wildfire firefighting credentials, and going into the brush to do that type of work without a reinforced toebox is insane.


I know, but as far as I know the only difference between core and fashion line when it comes to Roccia Vet is the soles and colors.

I'm seriously thinking about getting a pair of Viberg with ice & oil sole or a pair White's Snow Pacs for next winter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

It's not the inland US or Canada. I grew up right beside a lake, and the temperature often fluctuated close to freezing. It's super slippery and slushy, and we get tons of black ice. I'd put pretty decent money on the slipperyness factor. As kids, we'd run around in sneakers all winter, in the snow, because boots, when I was growing up, was super uncool. I think that for a sole to be really helpful, you need to wear spikes (my parents, who are in their 60s, do).

Okay.
post #51 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Find Finn View Post

I know, but as far as I know the only difference between core and fashion line when it comes to Roccia Vet is the soles and colors.

I'm seriously thinking about getting a pair of Viberg with ice & oil sole or a pair White's Snow Pacs for next winter.

Vibergs are a bit more than Diemme's, but ime, they are much better made, and considerably more distinctive.

iirc, the Roccia Vet also comes in some very non-practical but pretty interesting materials, or maybe I'm thinking of another model. Wool, for example, looks interesting, but is wholly impractical unless you are purely lounging.
post #52 of 88

Hi,

 

I work with Diemme Footwear at Blender Agency, so I thought I'd join here in case people have any questions or comments that they would like any direct feedback on straight from the source. My schedule does not allow me to be omnipresent here at the forum, but I'll do my best to answer as quickly as I can.

 

First things first; to properly explain the goal and purpose of the Diemme Footwear collection it is a line that is intended for city use. We use high quality Vibram soles that are very expensive compared to other rubber compound soles from other suppliers, but most of them are chosen for their performance in city conditions with comfort through lightness and flexibility as the main deciding factors. Most of the soles are in expanded rubber or micro rubber compounds. For use in the outdoors and in heavy snow it would be more beneficial with rubber soles that give more traction - and with deeper lugs, but rubber soles are much more rigid and much heavier which makes them less ideal for city use and in dry conditions. On ice it is really only soles with metal parts or cotton-infused soles that give any meaningful performance lift.

 

To me the Roccia Vet is perfect for cold or gusty weather where one wants footwear that provides warmth and a cushioned and comfortable walk with relatively good ankle support, but where the conditions are relatively dry or where the terrain is flat. For use in deep snow and in steep terrain it would be much better to go with soles like the Roccia Block or Montagna Block:

 

The composition that gives good performance in deep snow and in steep terrain are more or less diametrically opposite to the composition that gives lightness and flexibility which are key factors for city use, so it is difficult to combine the two. The sole manufacturing business is also a very traditional industry with very little change and new innovation, compared to other industries like textiles or leather, so it makes the options somewhat limited. Most of the reason for this is that the development cost for rubber soles are massively large and the production minimums are huge, which makes brands and sole manufacturers reluctant to invest in new soles and new technology. But we have a few new soles in the works, one for AW13 with a rubber Cristy sheet (undersole) that we fix to a custommade EVA midsole that we produce in Italy to the same dimensions as the regular Cristy sole. That way one will experience a better grip, but still with the same profile and appearance as the Cristy sole. 

post #53 of 88
Sorry but it sounds like BS to me.

Having worn a pair of the first season of Roccia Vet with Begonia Morflex, which is something you added for the fashion line, I can say BS, as the amount of times I almost fell flat on my ass walking round downtown Copenhagen is ridiculous.

I contacted you or your colleague regarding the sole being worn out after sub 400km, which is sub par to say the least and I was told to contact a cobbler, as it wasn't something covered by warranty, my cobbler on Gl. Kongevej in Copenhagen, who does a ALOT of expensive shoes said that he didn't believe it was genuine Vibram, due to it being shit, so I had it resoled on my own dime even though the shoes was still under warranty according Danish consumer laws and now it's actually useful when there's ice/snow on the ground.

Also I'm still wondering why Commando soles aren't available even though there's pictures floating around of them. (I have spoken to the buyer at Norse, who said that it wasn't something they could order).





Last but not least, why the **** don't you offer replacement laces.
post #54 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by EGBA View Post

 On ice it is really only soles with metal parts or cotton-infused soles that give any meaningful performance lift.

 

 

 

 

So you need to wear spikes to after all?  The vibram sole pattern used isn't effective for ice (Thanks to a broken tail bone...)

post #55 of 88
A commando sole option definitely couldn't hurt, but I'm curious about the new sole he mentioned.

I have been wearing Diemmes in a snowy city, and I have not been having any traction problems.

For a few seasons Oki-Ni sold Diemme laces for £5 or so.

post #56 of 88

I understand that you must be frustrated, but I would appreciate if we could please try to keep a civil tongue.

 

Obviously, the claim that we would use anything but original Vibram soles is proposterous. Surely it does not make sense that we would be buying some genuine and some less than genuine Vibram soles? That would ruin the relationship between Diemme and Vibram - a relationship that is over 20 years old. We only source from the premier suppliers - whatever the component. Our hardware is made in Italy and Austria. Our laces are produced in Italy and Germany. Our soles are for the most part made in Italy, apart from some items from Vibram China. Our leather is from Italian, US, Swiss, French and UK tanneries. We don't do shortcuts and we certainly would not source fake Vibram soles.

 

The sole you are referring to is the Vibram Begonia Morflex 8347 sheet, fixed to a microcellular rubber midsole. Vibram Morflex has abrasion resistance numbers of <200 mm3. Polymers with 150-200 mm3 is considered to have moderate resistance to abrasion. But the microcellular midsole has a lower density and less abrasion resistance so when you first wear away the sheet (undersole) the midsole will wear down rapidly. If you're interested in other numbers it has a hardness of 35-45 ShoreA, so basically the same softness as a pencil eraser, and a density of 0,3 gr/cm3 meaning that it is very lightweight. The fracture strain is extremely high at 250-350 %. In the past three years we have had a return rate on less than 0,2 % so there has not been a general problem with the soles even though we have used a lot of Morflex. I can remember two instances on the Morflex and one on the Newflex compound where we have had consumers that have worn down the soles and claimed this to be a factory defect. In comparision to the overall quantities we have sold this is an extremely low number. For soles with sheet undersoles and softer midsoles of EVA or microcellular rubber it is important to replace the undersole as soon as it is getting close to wearing through to the midsole.

 

There is a separate Japanese collection that has been sold for the past 8 years. In this collection there has been a heavier focus on more traditional soles such as the Roccia Block and Montagna Block, but we still use these soles on some of the styles in the worldwide collection. Here is an example: http://www.diemmefootwear.com/product/tibet%20snuff   Commandos, Roccia Block and Montagna Block are generally made from the Vibram Mont rubber which has an abrasion resistance of <110 but a hardness of 75-81 ShoreA and a density of 1,15 gr/cm3 so it weighs almost four times as much as Morflex and is more rigid than a car tire. Starting with this SP13 we are offering the Japanese collection to our worldwide clients as well, but there are not that many non-Japanese buyers that buy from this collection.

 

We don't do any direct sales, but we do offer laces through our retailers. It is only a smaller portion of our retailers that choose to carry laces, and there are hardly any online stores - which is understandable considering the small unit price. That being said it is also perfectly possible to buy and use any laces from any supplier.

post #57 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by EGBA View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
I understand that you must be frustrated, but I would appreciate if we could please try to keep a civil tongue.

Obviously, the claim that we would use anything but original Vibram soles is proposterous. Surely it does not make sense that we would be buying some genuine and some less than genuine Vibram soles? That would ruin the relationship between Diemme and Vibram - a relationship that is over 20 years old. We only source from the premier suppliers - whatever the component. Our hardware is made in Italy and Austria. Our laces are produced in Italy and Germany. Our soles are for the most part made in Italy, apart from some items from Vibram China. Our leather is from Italian, US, Swiss, French and UK tanneries. We don't do shortcuts and we certainly would not source fake Vibram soles.

The sole you are referring to is the Vibram Begonia Morflex 8347 sheet, fixed to a microcellular rubber midsole. Vibram Morflex has abrasion resistance numbers of <200 mm3. Polymers with 150-200 mm3 is considered to have moderate resistance to abrasion. But the microcellular midsole has a lower density and less abrasion resistance so when you first wear away the sheet (undersole) the midsole will wear down rapidly. If you're interested in other numbers it has a hardness of 35-45 ShoreA, so basically the same softness as a pencil eraser, and a density of 0,3 gr/cm3 meaning that it is very lightweight. The fracture strain is extremely high at 250-350 %. In the past three years we have had a return rate on less than 0,2 % so there has not been a general problem with the soles even though we have used a lot of Morflex. I can remember two instances on the Morflex and one on the Newflex compound where we have had consumers that have worn down the soles and claimed this to be a factory defect. In comparision to the overall quantities we have sold this is an extremely low number. For soles with sheet undersoles and softer midsoles of EVA or microcellular rubber it is important to replace the undersole as soon as it is getting close to wearing through to the midsole.

There is a separate Japanese collection that has been sold for the past 8 years. In this collection there has been a heavier focus on more traditional soles such as the Roccia Block and Montagna Block, but we still use these soles on some of the styles in the worldwide collection. Here is an example: http://www.diemmefootwear.com/product/tibet%20snuff   Commandos, Roccia Block and Montagna Block are generally made from the Vibram Mont rubber which has an abrasion resistance of <110 but a hardness of 75-81 ShoreA and a density of 1,15 gr/cm3 so it weighs almost four times as much as Morflex and is more rigid than a car tire. Starting with this SP13 we are offering the Japanese collection to our worldwide clients as well, but there are not that many non-Japanese buyers that buy from this collection.

We don't do any direct sales, but we do offer laces through our retailers. It is only a smaller portion of our retailers that choose to carry laces, and there are hardly any online stores - which is understandable considering the small unit price. That being said it is also perfectly possible to buy and use any laces from any supplier.

I though my tone was civil, you should here me when I'm angry then. wink.gif

Prior to speaking to Norse, you guys and the resoling, I spoke with Diemme in Italy regarding doing a custom boot or sending them my boots for a resoling, but they thought shipping the boots back and forth would be too expensive.

I quoted the cobbler and he was referring to the quality not whether or not they were genuine and an eraser isn't the most durable thing to put under a pair of shoes, that will last 20+ years, (there's pictures of the result further back).

Never claimed it was a production error, a large disappointment and very frustrating having a pair of almost new shoes being worn down, yes.

I've spoken to Norse repeatedly about the soles and the laces, I asked directly about doing a special order with a commando sole or if it was in the program and it was no to both.

Regarding the laces, they said they were only offered in large mixed boxes, with laces in different colors including some no one wants, which was why they don't stock them.




Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenTribe View Post

I have been wearing Diemmes in a snowy city, and I have not been having any traction problems.

For a few seasons Oki-Ni sold Diemme laces for £5 or so.

I don't doubt the Christy's like the one RW's have are okay, but the other one, not so much.

The Bureau and TBS had them as well.
post #58 of 88
Interesting posts by EGBA, thank you for the hard data.

And for putting up with the level of discourse here.
post #59 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by silentfox74 View Post

So you need to wear spikes to after all?  The vibram sole pattern used isn't effective for ice (Thanks to a broken tail bone...)

 

A rubber sole will give a slightly better performance than expanded rubber compounds such as Newflex or Morflex. and you also have rubber compounds such as Vibram Icetrek which has a high coefficient of friction on most surfaces. But ice is ice so to have any true performance on ice one really needs either:

 

- Metal attachments such as this:  http://www.calzaturificiodiemme.it/dettaglioprodotto.php?id=58&cat=alta%20quota&lang=ita

- Spike solutions such as Vibram Dyna Spike or attachable ice grippers, spikes or overshoes.

- Soles with kevlar-woven cotton which is embedded in circular patterns underfoot. Cotton has a vastly superior friction on ice compared to rubber or rubber compounds.

 

We are working to implement soles with kevlar-woven cotton in our AW14 collection, but the challenge is to work with Vibram to find or develop soles that have this technology but will also work aesthetically in the segment we are working in.

post #60 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Find Finn View Post


I though my tone was civil, you should here me when I'm angry then. wink.gif

Prior to speaking to Norse, you guys and the resoling, I spoke with Diemme in Italy regarding doing a custom boot or sending them my boots for a resoling, but they thought shipping the boots back and forth would be too expensive.

I quoted the cobbler and he was referring to the quality not whether or not they were genuine and an eraser isn't the most durable thing to put under a pair of shoes, that will last 20+ years, (there's pictures of the result further back).

Never claimed it was a production error, a large disappointment and very frustrating having a pair of almost new shoes being worn down, yes.

I've spoken to Norse repeatedly about the soles and the laces, I asked directly about doing a special order with a commando sole or if it was in the program and it was no to both.

Regarding the laces, they said they were only offered in large mixed boxes, with laces in different colors including some no one wants, which was why they don't stock them.
I don't doubt the Christy's like the one RW's have are okay, but the other one, not so much.

The Bureau and TBS had them as well.

 

There are small-scale footwear producers that do artisan work and offer consumers to do special orders and send products in for repairs, and on the other side you have footwear manufacturers that produce larger volumes and produce at a number of different factories. Diemme is somewhere in between. Previously the production was more artisan and fragmented with no real collection but rather an archive of previous work that local distributors used to compose Diemme collections for their local markets. So you might have a German partner that focused on country boots, an Italian partner that sold casual shoes, and another partner that sold mountain boots. And there was also third party production for anything from more traditional UK country boots brands to fashion brands like Martin Margiela to luxury brands like Bottega Veneta and Chanel. Diemme is currently in a process where they are going from a more artisan and fragmented production to a more streamlined production focusing on their own brand with a worldwide collection.

 

We get requests from consumers that asks us to do custom boots, like you did. But the costs in terms of administration, material order minimums, shipping costs to get the materials in, a start-stop production, is massive when only producing a few units or just one pair. And the same goes with a repair service. It is not part of our strategy as it would conflict with how we need to work in order to keep our current price level. It is fantastic that some companies offer that kind of customisation and level of service, but this sort of service comes at a price - directly or indirectly - as it puts a strain on both administration and the factory floor. Our strategy is to use very high quality materials (we use some of the same leathers as Visvim which is 2-3 times as expensive), a high quality Italian production, but to keep the prices as low as possible so we can compete on price with brands that sell much higher volumes and do not use as expensive materials as us. It is all about the best possible value for money while maintaining a premium production, a large number of options in the collection, and with a small production volume per SKU. Our organisation is very tight and it is very efficient as the brand is also the factory, but we already have a large collection compared to our overall production volume so it would be impossible to keep our current price level if we were to offer customisation and a repair service. For repairs we recommend the Vibram shoemakers database: http://www.vibram.com/vibramrepair/calzolaio_affiliato.php?lingua=2

 

I'm afraid that you misinterpreted the pencil eraser analogy. The Shore A hardness is simply just how hard or soft the material is measured by a shore durometer. It is the abrasion resistance test that lets you know how rapidly the sole will wear down. A pencil eraser will have the same hardness as Morflex, but of course nowhere near the same abrasion resistance. The Cristy is from the same compound as Begonia Morflex, so there is no difference other than that the Cristy is a wedge sole and the Begonia Morflex is a thinner sheet. So with the Cristy you have a lot more compound to wear through before it becomes an issue.

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